[luis]

You have:
-, Kxx, AQ98xx, Axxx
Everybody vulnerable.

You open 1d and the bidding goes:
1d 3s x 4s
?

Your bid?

I'll post later what I did at the table (please don't do that at home)

[inquiry]

This is a process of elimination hand.... The possible bids are:

1. Any of three different slams (not SPADES/NT)
2. Any of three different 5-level contracts (not Spades/NT)
3. Double (takeout the way I play it)
4. 4NT (if takout with fear of penalty pass)
5. 5S
6. Pass

We can eliminate Pass, since it will not be forcing and this hand is OFFENSIVE in nature and can't risk the bidding going 4S-P-P-P.

We should also eliminate 6C/6D/6H as blind guesses. Not only are you unsure about the right level, you may misguess the right suit. If you bid 6C, partner may hit with 5 Hearts and 3 clubs and you lose control on a SPADE lead. Or if you guess 6D, partner may have 4Hearts and 6 clubs, with stiff diamond.

So that leaves us with 5 of a suit (same quess involved at the six level, although you are fairly certain you have at LEAST a 4-3 heart fit), 4NT, DBL, and 5-SPADES.

I would eliminate 5D/5H/5C because again,due to shooting blindly hoping you pick both the right suit and the right level.

So that leaves the very AGGRESSIVE 5S (pick a slam partner).... DBL ... (I am uncertain of what to do, but let's do something partner).... and 4NT.

I think 5-Spades is too unilateral. You ARE surely going to slam on hands where you may have little or no play even for 4, but it is MUCH better than the blind shot of 6CLUBS or 6HEARTS. Why? At least you will find a playable suit.

So that leaves me with a tame DBL and a potentially confusing 4NT. What I would LIKE 4NT to mean is "I have good diamonds and 4 clubs, and can stand hearts, and can't stand a penatly pass of 4Sx so... pick a strain." Experience however tells me my partner will start counting his Keycards and then blurt out some blackwood response. So, while I had to make a four-level takeout double with a VOID (penalty pass may turn out not all that well).... I will do that with any partner I worry will take 4NT as blackwood.

On the other hand, if partner passes the takeout double, down three is not out of the question, so we could be +800 versus our +600-620-650, and even +500 for down two is not that bad at imps. And if you can make six? Then you will get them even more...

My rate the bidding...
------------------------
10 - DBL <-right strain and shot for right level
9 - NT <<-- if partner understands you have S void
5 - 5S <--right strain, possible wrong level
3 - 5C/D/H <- maybe wrong level, maybe wrong suit
1 - 6C/6D/6H <- at least bid 5S and find right suit
-------------------------

The dbl has a chance for partner to apply the law. If he is looking at something like 3-4-2-5 or 3-5-2-3 or 3-5-1-4. He knows they have at most 10 card and (if maybe only 9 card fit). Since you didn't just bid the known H fit, he suspects you have at most 3 hearts, for 7 or 8 major fit. You may have a 9 card club fit on the hand where he has 5 clubs. So he is likely to get the penatly pass right when it is right. He will assume nine card fit for them (if you play 4NT as pick suit with void), and 9 fit for you... Your partner will realize if you can make 12 tricks, 4Sx is down 800. +1390 vers +1100 isn't wonderful for you, but not a disaster. But he might bid 6 Clubs with that hand and EXCELLENT values... But if he is 3-5-2-3 or 3-5-1-4, he will assume at most 8 card fit for you and he might (correctly) assume to defend.

Ben

PS.. everyone did a lot of bidding vulnerable, so I suspect partner may have only 2 SPADES... so really doubt that penatly pass will be an option here...so trick will be my next bid... if partner doesn't put us in slam. I may be in the same boat as the 5S bidders...if anyone tries that.

[luis]

Nice analysis Ben, my concerns at the table were:

Dbl: I really, really don't like doubling with voids, I expect my pd to use the law and count 1 trump in my hand if they are going to play.
4NT: Sounds like I have a powerful one-suited hand wanting to ask for aces and then bid 6 or seven. What would you do with x, Kx, AKQJxx, KQJx ?

I don't know what is the best option but I slightly prefer 4NT to double, double might describe a balanced hand with good values, a hand that can stand a penalty pass of 4sx. Doubles of 4s bids by opps should have a strong tendency to be for penalties since you do have 4NT as a takeout.

Wanna guess what did I bid at the table?

[inquiry]

Quote

Nice analysis Ben, my concerns at the table were:

Dbl: I really, really don't like doubling with voids, I expect my pd to use the law and count 1 trump in my hand if they are going to play.
4NT: Sounds like I have a powerful one-suited hand wanting to ask for aces and then bid 6 or seven. What would you do with x, Kx, AKQJxx, KQJx ?

I don't know what is the best option but I slightly prefer 4NT to double, double might describe a balanced hand with good values, a hand that can stand a penalty pass of 4sx. Doubles of 4s bids by opps should have a strong tendency to be for penalties since you do have 4NT as a takeout.

Wanna guess what did I bid at the table?

Well... if you will not dbl with a void and you play 4NT as asking for aces, you are stuck with a number of less than perfect options. I guess the options that leap to mind in this situation are 5S, 5C and 5H in that order. So you probably bid 5S... at least you find the right suit to play in....

I guess I still double, even though, like you, I hate to make such a takeout bid with a void.

Ben

[pbleighton]

1) Ben writes:
"So that leaves us with 5 of a suit (same quess involved at the six level, although you are fairly certain you have at LEAST a 4-3 heart fit)"

Fairly certain? Doesn't partner guarantee 4 - or is this not a negative double?

2) I would have assumed a negative double, showing hearts, then gone to 5 hearts (with my heart in my mouth ;D), because my spade void makes partner's heart holding likely to be 5, if it is at least 4.

Double is the other possibility.

With the partners I have played with, 4NT is Blackwood (it would be for me, too - Occam's razor is a useful tool for the ignorant!).

[inquiry]

Hi Pbleighton,

I said "fairly certain" because occasionally fate deals you hand that is just too good to pass, but not good enough to bid 4 of a suit on, with shortness in their suit after a preempt.
Something like 1-3-3-6 or 2-3-3-5 with a good three card major, no stopper in their suit. Example...

S-5 H-AQx D-Qxx C-KJxxxx

Since you are short in Spades, if you pass, your partner will work out you are short in spades, and assume weak. With a hand like this you have three ways "to lie" to your partner.

You can bid 4C (forcing) - maybe missing laydown 3NT.
You can raise on three card support (not horrible) - maybe miss 3NT and/or playing in clubs
You can pass (and let them steal you blind)
Our you can make a negative double (with only 3 cards in other major).

I admit none of these are attractive...but I choose the prettiest and most flexible of the ugly bids... DBL. If partner bids 4C's, GREAT, if he rebids Diamonds, no problem. If he bids 4H's, we can hope for a nice Moysiean fit with the spade ruffs in the short trump hand (mine). If he bids 3NT or passes the double, my hand will not be a big disappointment to him....but if he blindly bids 5H's on Kxx of hearts, well, hehehe, another example of my partnership playing in 3-3 fits at high levels.

All in all, as long as partner doesn't insist on playing you for a minimum of 4Hearts you will be alright with this takeout double. But here, as opener with a spade void, I agree with you... partner is actually fairly likely to not only have his "required" (I say "expected") four hearts, I think you are correct in guessing he probably has five. I think DBL keeps a five/six heart contract in play. Partner with 5 hearts and 1 or 2 spades, will clearly pull the double to his long heart suit. With 4 hearts and tolerance for diamonds, he probably should (would?) bid 4NT to let you know you could rebid your diamond suit if you were not wild about clubs. And with long clubs, short diamonds, and four hearts? He will bid 5 clubs.

The important need in these preemptive auctions is to remain as flexibible as possible...and double is your most flexible tool... as long as you play it as takeout.

Ben

[the hog]

X for takeout

[luis]

Well at the table I did bid 5 spades and realized that it was very likely a terrible overbid.
Pd bid 6h (poor guy) and then had to play 6h on this layout:

-
Kxx
AQ98xx
Axxx

and

Jxx
AJxxx
T7
KJT

Lead: spade ruffed in dummy.
Club to the jack (held!), diammond ten to the Q (RHO plays the J!), hK, h to the Ace (hearts are 3-2 Q doesn't drop) diammond to the 8 (RHO discards) diammond ace discarding a spade, diammond ruffed, club to the Ace, diammond discarding the last spade, claim.....

You can't argue with success :-)

Field scores: 4h down 1, 4h down 2, 5h down 4, etc. I think it was easier to play 6h than 4h on this deal, what do you think?

[inquiry]

Quote

-
Kxx
AQ98xx
Axxx

and

Jxx
AJxxx
T7
KJT

You can't argue with success :-)

"You can't argue with success :-) " .... sure you can, that is one of the main reasons for post mortems.

5 Spades is not a horrible, horrible overbid, but 6 hearts is not the best contract in the world.

Looks like the LAW maybe off a few tricks here. Since the club hook wins, and West had one diamond, and hearts split (and most in 4H went down)...we can figure out their hands...

1) East has Qxx of hearts, to go along with Kxxx of diamonds.
2) West bid 3S vul, so must have good spade, I would think 7 when both vul, with 6, 2S is enough. So their hands are:

S-HHxxxxx S-Hxx
H-xx H-Qxx
D-J D-Kxxx
C-Qxx C-xxx

Against 4Sx, you will collect 3C, 1D, 2H for down three (+800). so they can win 7 tricks.. you have your 12 tricks, for total of 19 tricks. The fit was 10+8 = 18. A very lucky slam indeed (voids often lead to an extra trick). If West held only six really good Spades (Say AKQxxx) and thus 4 CLUBS and only two in East, you will still get him down three (2H, 1D, 2C, and a trump promotion on third round of diamonds (after cashing your two hearts winners).

However, if East has a spade honor, and West is 6-2-1-4, the law is off by two tricks... you can still make 12 tricks, but they will make 8, unless, your partner's large spade spot is the nine and West has the SPADE-TEN, in which case the trump promotion is back into the picture.

Congradulations on a tuff hand. Now the question I will ask, if you had doubled with your hand (takeout), would your partner have left it in or bid 5H's. And if he (or she) had bid 5H's would you pass or press on to 6H's?

I think with your partners hand I would assume 3 hearts in north, so 8 for us, and 1 spade in north, so 9 for them... So with 17 tricks, both vul, I would have defended 4Sx.

Ben

[luis]

I guess pd would have passed 4sx. I don't see any reason to bid 5h with a defensive hand where the law indicates that defending their 10 trick contract is the right choice.
Had he bid 5h I have a good reason to cuebid 5 spades showing the void.