[straube]

We play Precision and our 2C opening is 6+ clubs. In fourth seat, when do we throw in the towel? Rather than play 10-15 I'm wondering if we should play 12-15 or 13-17 or....? So which lettered hand would you pass out?

A. Axx x xxx AJxxxx 11.45
B. Axx x Jxx AJxxxx 11.75
C. Axx x xxx AQxxxx 12.8
D. Axx x QJx AJxxxx 13.35
E. Axx x xxx AQJxxx 13.9
F. Axx x xxx AKxxxx 14.4
G. AJx x xxx AKxxxx 14.95
H. Axx x Qxx AKxxxx 15.75
I. AQx x xxx AKxxxx 16

[mycroft]

This strongly depends on what you expect to see from partner. Playing a 10-12 NT? Well, if partner's balanced, he won't have 10 high. What's your unbalanced opening minimum? If it's "any 11", that's one thing; if it's "10s-that-look-like-11s" it's another; if it's "10s-that-don't-look-like-9s", it's another yet. And remember, if partner's got an unbalanced hand, what are they most likely short in? Also, how (un)disciplined are your preempts? If partner could have ♥QT9xxx and a quacky 9 count you're going to feel a lot different about 2♣-2♥ than if he would have opened that.

Third seat, minimum-hand 2♣ is a preempt (because it's 10s around the table, or fourth hand has something); but fourth-seat, you think you're going plus, either to make or pushing them beyond their limit.

Having said that, it'll be hard for me to pass 11-with-two-bullets, especially in the "long" suits. Swap the hearts and the spades in all of those hands and they tank significantly.

[straube]

mycroft, on 2013-May-08, 16:31, said:

This strongly depends on what you expect to see from partner. Playing a 10-12 NT? Well, if partner's balanced, he won't have 10 high. What's your unbalanced opening minimum? If it's "any 11", that's one thing; if it's "10s-that-look-like-11s" it's another; if it's "10s-that-don't-look-like-9s", it's another yet. And remember, if partner's got an unbalanced hand, what are they most likely short in? Also, how (un)disciplined are your preempts? If partner could have ♥QT9xxx and a quacky 9 count you're going to feel a lot different about 2♣-2♥ than if he would have opened that.

Third seat, minimum-hand 2♣ is a preempt (because it's 10s around the table, or fourth hand has something); but fourth-seat, you think you're going plus, either to make or pushing them beyond their limit.

Having said that, it'll be hard for me to pass 11-with-two-bullets, especially in the "long" suits. Swap the hearts and the spades in all of those hands and they tank significantly.

Our balanced hands of 11-13 open 1D. We open most unbalanced hands of 10 hcps and occasional 9s.

[JLOGIC]

A is clearly a give up, D through I clearly bid.

B and C are the debatable ones, I imagine I would typically open both but it might depend (main factors are how sound do opps open, how good/bad are they at bridge, etc).

[SteveMoe]

While I tend to agree with Mycroft, I would want a 7 loser cont in 4th seat. I'll pass A & B.
If partner is likely to pass in 2nd seat with 5 ♠ and 9-10 HCP, I'll reconsider.

[JLOGIC]

Meh, thinking about it more you should probably always pass B, so probably C is the only debtable one. You will almost always be getting to 3C when you open with a 10 count since partner will have enough to bid (though maybe you luck out and catch a spade fit), and when your hand is that weak that cannot be that great.

It is honestly just hard for me to pass out a hand vs bad opps lol, it is a waste of your cardplay edge and bidding judgement edge.

[straube]

Thanks for the replies this far. I'm assuming capable opponents. I thought we'd be tossing more hands, but glad to learn different.

[JLOGIC]

In general you're always supposed to open hands that "everyone" would open regardless of rule of 15. Rule of 15 (or, looking at how many major suit cards you have if you look at hearts also) should be used for the marginal ones. I just think hands D and up are too good to pass, they are normal opening bids regardless of seat or vulnerability, you likely have by far the best hand/most playing strength of anyone at the table so you can't pass it out.

That metric would also come up with A and B are passes, D and up are bids, and C is marginal (since it's pretty close to too good to pass regardless). So at least I'm consistent

I think opponents opening bid style is just as important as how good they are. For instance if you are r/w against meckwell I doubt it's ever right to pass a hand out, neither of them bid 1st seat favorable and 3rd seat favorable, given their bidding style it is almost sure that we have them outgunned and also likely that they can't bid at the 2 level.

[Siegmund]

I am onboard with everything from E and up for sure. For me A and B are the obvious passes and C and D are both open for debate. Playing a method where balanced 11s are being opened, that is.

[rhm]

A and B

But give me another spade instead of a diamond and I would not throw in the towel on either.
I do not think this can accurately be measured in points.
It is game prospects, which matters.

Rainer Herrmann

[Free]

Much depends on your opening style in 1st and 2nd seat. If you're sure you don't even hold half the deck, you might as well surrender immediately. Suppose you open all 11 counts in 1st & 2nd seat. Then A and B are clear passes imo, C is debatable and I'd probably open it if I have some decent intermediates in ♣. D can be passed very rarely, but only if the ♣ suit is really poor. From E it's a clear opening imo.

Suit quality on marginal hands is important for me. AJ9876 is opened with pleasure while AQ5432 is up for discussion. Aces and Kings in side suits are also valuable.

[Zelandakh]

I am with the majority - open D and up, pass A and B, usually open C.

[straube]

I just wonder if we've fully factored in our game potential vs the opponents'. I should have specified imps.

[Fluffy]

opening a 12 count with ♣KQJ would be a suicide IMO opponents are favourite to make game, but depends on how solid they open obviously, if they also play precision things change.