[Wackojack]

Match point

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With a new partner and no agreements I passed (a bad bid). So I am interested on what various bids should logically mean. Here is my effort:
Double = penalties
2NT = natural invite
2♠ = forcing (On the basis that 2NT is an invite) at least 5 diamonds
3♥= game force heart shortage.

So I have to bid 2NT. Who agrees and who disagrees?

[P_Marlowe]

X - would be T/O, not penalty. But low level doubles are tricky, so
not making those bids undiscussed, is a good idea.

I would bid 2S, descibing my hand, 2NT should show a semibal. hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[fromageGB]

I don't think 3♥ necessarily shows a heart shortage, but of course it is likely on this bidding. GF certainly. I agree with you that X is penalty, not takeout (probably a minority view). Takeout to what? Partner has denied 4 spades, in my book, and if I wanted a choice of clubs or diamonds I could bid clubs. So penalty. The others, yes.

2NT is invitational, but surely it will be will a couple of hearts, hopefully a useful one. Not this hand. Over 2♠ what options does responder have? He can rebid NT if really happy with stops in hearts, bid a club suit which he probably has, or give preference to diamonds if not too keen on other bids. This seems the best option.

[ggwhiz]

I think double just says it's our hand, extra values but flatter shape and no strong direction. Just under (with prime cards) or over a 1nt opener.

2♠ on this one shows my offensive extras and the 5th plus diamond even though we don't expect to play in the suit. The best info I can give pard to steer us into notrump, diamonds or on occasion backing into a club fit.

Our free 1nt bids are strong enough that I have a game force now but I don't know where until pard tells me.

[Winstonm]

Although double could be penalty this is not the best idea as penalizing an 8-card fit at the 2-level is rarely a high priority bid, which is why the double here is best used as takeout. I would double to indicate the basic shape of the hand, allowing partner (who must have clubs or diamond support) a chance to evaluate his hand. We may even find a minor game that was otherwise almost impossible to bid.

[Zelandakh]

I must be missing something. The traditional meaning for 1NT here is 8-10, less than 4 spades and something in hearts. We have a good 16 and surely want to play 3NT if partner's heart stopper is sufficient. Is this not precisely what a 3♥ rebid asks?

Does everyone play 1NT as 6-9(10) now? In that case this hand would be a clear 2♠ rebid. If we play X as takeout then we could additionally afford to specifically make this bid invitational if we wanted to, doubling with weaker and stronger hands of this shape. It is more complicated if X is penalty oriented. Now it might pay for 2♠ to become our weak takeout, in which case we are left with 2NT as our only invite.

[ggwhiz]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-04, 10:58, said:

I must be missing something. The traditional meaning for 1NT here is 8-10, less than 4 spades and something in hearts. We have a good 16 and surely want to play 3NT if partner's heart stopper is sufficient. Is this not precisely what a 3♥ rebid asks?

I agree but just think that 2♠ (where we live) followed by 3♣ if available or 3♥ next will likely get us to the right spot where an immediate 2nt or 3♥ bid is all eggs in one basket. 3nt or bust when 5 or rarely 6 of a minor is on.

Pard has already shown a heart stopper with 1nt so what does 3♥ ask for, two stoppers? What do they do with one? especially a sketchy one like Qxx.

I guess they have to bypass 3nt with that one but with A or Kx(xx) that they have already shown they have to pin the tail on the donkey and over 2nt too.

[Wackojack]

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I find it difficult to accept that a double by east should be for take-out. It is not like 1NT-(2♥) where I think it is sensible to make a double for take-out. In any case does it get you any further in this deal? West then bids 3♣ and East has just postponed his dilemma.

The optimists who bid 3♥ will be rewarded as West will now bid 3NT. btw some posters say that 3♥is an asking bid. I prefer to think that it is a telling bid. i.e. A shortage in hearts with 16+ points. So either 4153, 4144 or in the extreme 4054 .

If you bid 2♠, then what should west bid? It surely has to be 2NT. Then you would pass. Otherwise you might as well have bid 3♥ to start with.

[Codo]

1. Your hand has nearly the perfect shape and strength for a take out double. If you play your methods, you need to bid 2 ♠ (or 3♥ ) with your hand heading nowhere and you will finish in 3 NT.
2. If you double for take out, partner will not bid 3 ♣, this would be quite silly. He will pass and collect a cold and cool top for 500.
3.Even if partner is a devotee to the LAW, (not the worst guideline ever...) he will reach the same number of NT, that you had reached with your approach.
4. May you make up a hand, where everybody has his bid and you a penalty double of 2 ♥ in the East hand? Must be a rare bird...

[ggwhiz]

Wackojack, on 2013-May-05, 11:28, said:

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If you bid 2♠, then what should west bid? It surely has to be ..........

3nt. 2♠ may not promise the world but it does show extras.

[P_Marlowe]

Wackojack, on 2013-May-05, 11:28, said:

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I find it difficult to accept that a double by east should be for take-out. It is not like 1NT-(2♥) where I think it is sensible to make a double for take-out. In any case does it get you any further in this deal? West then bids 3♣ and East has just postponed his dilemma.

The optimists who bid 3♥ will be rewarded as West will now bid 3NT. btw some posters say that 3♥is an asking bid. I prefer to think that it is a telling bid. i.e. A shortage in hearts with 16+ points. So either 4153, 4144 or in the extreme 4054 .

If you bid 2♠, then what should west bid? It surely has to be 2NT. Then you would pass. Otherwise you might as well have bid 3♥ to start with.

My main problem with a direct 3H bid is, that it forces your side to game, at a time, when you have no idea, if you have enough for
game.
The 1NT bid may show more than 6HCP, but a well placed 7 cound with AQx or KJx behind the overcaller is surely enough for the bid.
If I end up in 2NT, with 24HCP, no clear fit, what is wrong with that playing MP?

Regarding T/O: I think the most common stopper for partner will be Hxx, since he also denied 4 spade, this will give him 7 cards in
the minors most of the time, i.e. having the option to ask partner to choose between the minors, or maybe suggesting to play 2S in
a 43 fit is certainly valuable option with a reasonable frequency.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[fromageGB]

Wackojack, on 2013-May-05, 11:28, said:

... If you bid 2♠, then what should west bid? It surely has to be 2NT. Then you would pass. Otherwise you might as well have bid 3♥ to start with.

No, I don't think so. If I bid 2♠ and he bids 2NT, then he is saying that he is very happy with his hearts. If he had an uncertain or weak hand, he would pass/3♣/3♦. Therefore, over 2NT, I may have sufficient playing tricks to go for 3NT. If he has a couple of heat stops, as anticipated, perhaps all I need is split honours in spades or for him to have one.

I think the point is that whatever the expected range and heart holding for the 1NT, the confirmation of 2NT denies a poor hand.

[fromageGB]

Wackojack, on 2013-May-05, 11:28, said:

... If you bid 2♠, then what should west bid? It surely has to be 2NT. Then you would pass. Otherwise you might as well have bid 3♥ to start with.

No, I don't think so. If I bid 2♠ and he bids 2NT, then he is saying that he is very happy with his hearts. If he had an uncertain or weak hand, he would pass/3♣/3♦. Therefore, over 2NT, I may have sufficient playing tricks to go for 3NT. If he has a couple of heart stops, as anticipated, perhaps all I need is split honours in spades or for him to have one.

I think the point is that whatever the expected range and heart holding for the 1NT, the confirmation of 2NT denies a poor hand.

[Wackojack]

I appreciate all the comments so far. They have forced me to think more deeply resulting in a partial change of mind about the meaning of a double in this position. I have been convinced by the argument that there are very few hands where a penalty double would work best. Here is one:

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However this hand would have opened a strong no trump. So:

Playing weak no trump (we were not) a double is likely to be a strong no trump hand. Partner should fairly easily be able to decide whether to bid or pass.

Playing strong no trump, a double is best played for take-out. This leaves the question as to what shape and strength is necessary. Would a balanced 14 with low doubleton heart and 4234 shape fit the bill? Say:
♠AQxx, ♥xx, ♦KQ10x, ♣K10x? It was the general consensus that west would leave the double in with his actual hand and you would be very unlucky were the contract to make.

With an unbalanced hand and a heart shortage, what strength do I need to make the take-out double?

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With this hand it is quite a high probability that 2♥ doubled will make and 2♠ is on our way. So there are some very finely balanced decisions to be made here.

Also: Quote "If you double for take out, partner will not bid 3 ♣, this would be quite silly. He will pass and collect a cold and cool top for 500." With the actual hands 2♥ will go 2 off, which on the evening would have given you a 70% score.

[Codo]

Just 2 down? So I guess, they got an undeserved second spade trick, because I can count at most 3 Hearts, no diamonds and 2 clubs so far... And if they got tapped, they may had even more problems....

But for the question about leaving the double in:
To me it depends a little on your school of thought.
If we accept double to be take out, there are two possibilities:

1. The bidding has shown that we have short hearts. Usually, they have at least 8, partner at least 3, that does not leave many hearts for us. So it would be possible to double just with extras- not with a weak opening. In this case, partner CAN pass with his actual hand. But: To pass always takes a risk: They seem to be at their fit level and it is lucky, that they have 3/3 in both black suits. But even in your example: If you lead diamonds and declarer is short in that suit, he will soon have less trumps then you and will surely fail.

2. I guess the usual approach is to double with the right shape, no matter how strong you are. In this case, partners pass would be quite a gamble. Rewarded very often, but expensive on other opportunities.

If you wait some weeks and start a topic and ask: What will you bid with this (West) hand after: .... I would bet that the majority will take the double out at imps and a big minority even at mps...

[lowerline]

Wackojack, on 2013-May-04, 03:53, said:

Match point

---

With a new partner and no agreements I passed (a bad bid). So I am interested on what various bids should logically mean. Here is my effort:
Double = penalties
2NT = natural invite
2♠ = forcing (On the basis that 2NT is an invite) at least 5 diamonds
3♥= game force heart shortage.

So I have to bid 2NT. Who agrees and who disagrees?

Double is definitely not penalty, but partner can convert it of course...

Steven

[FrancesHinden]

Codo, on 2013-May-06, 06:59, said:

Just 2 down? So I guess, they got an undeserved second spade trick, because I can count at most 3 Hearts, no diamonds and 2 clubs so far... And if they got tapped, they may had even more problems....

3 hearts, 2 clubs and 1 spade = 6 tricks = 2 off