[flytoox]

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[color=Yellow]"Pd plays me for 5 clubs and 4 Spades?"

For example,

Suppose that the auction starts

1D - 1N ???

What is your planned rebid, and what do you consider a representative minimum and maximum hand for this call?

1d-1n is exactly what happened at table. I leap to 3n

[hrothgar]

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Wonderful example regarding why the 1D opening is so badly flawed.

You hold a so-so 16 count, which you have just described as 18 -19 balanced.

Your hand is primarily Aces and Kings, which is a plus, however, the stiff Ace of Clubs significant degrades the hand. Furthermore, you have no long suits that you expect to run.

Partner's 1N overcall shows ~ 6 - 10 HCP and DENIES 4 hearts.

If partner is at the bottom of his range (he holds 6-8 HCP), you're likely to go down a lot. The opps are going to knock out your Ace of Heart of opening lead, get in with something, and starting running heart tricks.
If partner is at the top of his range, you will probably make, however, all this means is that you got lucky.

Better to open 1NT and provide partner with the information that he needs to make an intelligent decision.

[Codo]

Hi all,

3 NT is no good rebid at all. The idea to open 1 Diamond with 4-4 in the minors is, that you have an easy rebid:
2 Club

So this hand wonderful proofes, why you are better placed with the 1 Diamond opening compared with 1 NT.

Now you have a chance to go to 5 Club or 5 Diamond and avoid 3 NT contracts with no play.

A duty which is very difficult after a 1 NT opening without a full set of conventions.

For his bid, Pd has at most 6 cards in the majors, so you surely have a minor suit fit and they surely have a heart fit.

So why blast the bidding to 3 NT?

My rebid will be 2 Club. In most (all?) natural system, this bid is from 12-19 HCPs and pd should make another move with 8 or more points.
So, if you have game, you can decide, if you play 3 NT or 5 in a minor.

This is something you hardly can after opening 1 NT.

Kind Regards

Roland

[badderzboy]

For those of us learning the game, the basics I have been taught would with the hand below would be

ACOL : 1C or 1D depending whether playing up the line or below singleton
SAYC : 1D 4+ in minors

If partner replies then 1S
In Acol: this can be 4 spades if followed by 1NT then 3C or 3D to show 16+pts and shows 4441 as all 3 suits bid!
In SAYC : Same 4 Spades else you would have opened 1S? unless 6-5 I suppose...
Could you not then show 3rd Suitwith 3C? Partner gets points and dist'n his choice of contract.

S: KXXX
H: A
D: KTXX
C: AQXX

As I'm only learning I would be fascinated in your advice as 4441 are the hardest hands to bid/play for us beginners!

thanks,

Steve

[the hog]

To bid 3 suits as you suggest Baddzerboy, is to significantly overstate the strength of this hand. You are forcing to the 3 level on a 16 count; partner only needs 6 to respond to your opening, and if pd bids H, she may have no great fit for you anyway.

As to Roland, opening 1D and rebidding 2C shows 5D and 4C, UNLESS you have the specific agreement that with a weakish ??45 you open 1D and rebid in Cs to solve that problem of that particularly awkward hand.
How are you going to proceed after 1D 1H 2C 2D, (which I have already shown could be on a doubleton)?

Someone once said, "Beware the 4441; they are hard to bid and do not play all that well either in suit contracts or in NTs". I can understand this comment - there is no 5 card suit to develop and frequently the singleton will be facing wasted honors. As I stated in a previous post, some have gone so far as to treat 4441s as balanced hands, opening 1NT with a singleton honor regardless of the NT range - 11-14 or 15-18. The fact that these are not easy to bid is shown by the number of posts made to what is not an uncommon hand.

For those players who believe that showing shape / hand type is of paramount importance in any intelligent bidding dialogue, bidding 2 suits shows 5-4 in 2 suits and denies a balanced hand. The corollory to this is to open whatever resembles a balanced hand with 1NT, (including hands with 5 card Majors, 6m in some 6223 etc). If you have a look at hands form the last few Olympiad books, you will notice that this trend is becoming more and more widespread. One of the best Rubber bridge players around, Michael Courtney, has long espoused this view. In the past his bidding theories have been regarded as idiosyncratic but now more and more top players are bidding this way. Here is an example of the Courtney style:

Quote from Peter Gill
WEST EAST
J754 K2
A932 KQ10754
Q10 J84
K64 A3

In the 1997 Cavendish playing against Krystof Martens,
Michael opened the East cards 1NT, in accordance with
the above principles (which were fully set out on our
Convention Card). I raised to 3NT; Q10 doubleton being
"two losers" in 4H or 4S but "useful assets" in 3NT,
according to Courtney theory. 3NT made easily, while
the field failed in 4H. Several of the world's top players said
that 3NT was the best spot but was completely unbiddable.

Another theory is that a 15-17HCP 1NT opening is better defined
as roughly 15-17HCP 4333 or 4432, OR 14-16HCP 5332 or 5422
(strong doubletons) OR 13-15HCP 6322 (decent 6 card suit) or
18HCP (doubleton AK or KQ with weak four card suits). "Roughly"
because this does not allow for variations based on vulnerability,
standard of the opposition, scoring method etc.

Note the hand - balanced with 2 strong doubletons, the 6 card M notwithstanding, this is a standard Courtney NT opening. With a 5332 he forgoes the requirement of 2 strong doubletons. 4441s are treated as balanced.

[wus]

What's with the obsession over 4-4 minors?. You have a spade suit... OK, not a good one, but certainly biddable, and p will respond.

Wus

[Cave_Draco]

<Someone once said, "Beware the 4441; they are hard to bid and do not play all that well either in suit contracts or in NTs". I can understand this comment>

4-4-4-1s are a top in waiting, ;D.

S/he who handles them best... gets a top. Why else would Precision reserve a bid for them?

[Codo]

Hi Ron,

As to Roland, opening 1D and rebidding 2C shows 5D and 4C, UNLESS you have the specific agreement that with a weakish ??45 you open 1D and rebid in Cs to solve that problem of that particularly awkward hand.
How are you going to proceed after 1D 1H 2C 2D, (which I have already shown could be on a doubleton)?

Someone once said, "Beware the 4441; they are hard to bid and do not play all that well either in suit contracts or in NTs". I can understand this comment - there is no 5 card suit to develop and frequently the singleton will be facing wasted honors. As I stated in a previous post, some have gone so far as to treat 4441s as balanced hands, opening 1NT with a singleton honor regardless of the NT range - 11-14 or 15-18. The fact that these are not easy to bid is shown by the number of posts made to what is not an uncommon hand.

So on one hand, you say the iron rule, that 1 D-2 C MUST SHOW a two suiter at least 54 is unbreakable.
OTOH you tell us, that it absolutely wonderful to open off-shape 1 NT?

I doubt, that both can be true...

I absolute agree, that in SAYC and 2/1 (and this is the threat about these systems) you have to use a little lie with 4441.
I absolute agree, that this COULD be 1 NT, even if I never felt the need to do so.

And again, I still wait for hands, where the bidding can start with 1Diamond-1Heart 1 Spade, or 1 Diamond 1NT 2 Club, where pd will bid with a doubelton Diamond 2 Diamond.
In my view, this is impossible.

1 D-1H-1S :
Pd can raise Spades with 4 Spades, bid 2 Heart with 5 Hearts, bid 1 NT with club length. No way to bid 2 Diamond with just two.

1D-1N-2Cl:
Pd has at most 6 major cards, so with two diamonds he has 5 + clubs and won`t bid 2 Diamond.

So, the worst case is a repeated Heart bid to let you play in your 5-1 fit. Bad luck but no difference to a 1 NT opening again.


J754 K2
A932 KQ10754
Q10 J84
K64 A3


After a 1 NT opening from East, West bid 3 NT.
I agree, that with 10 balanced HCPs and 4432, it often is a good idea to do so.
But I really want to know, if this pair had bid the same way if the cards had been
QJ54 K2
A932 KQ10754
107 J84
K64 A3
Then they had been the only ones to play 3 NT -1 or -2 opps. the field with 4 H =.

Of course, we all agree, that in your given hand, 3 NT is the top spot and the courtney NT reachs this goal very quickly. But like always, what does a hand proofe?

Another theory is that a 15-17HCP 1NT opening is better defined
as roughly 15-17HCP 4333 or 4432, OR 14-16HCP 5332 or 5422
(strong doubletons) OR 18HCP (doubleton AK or KQ with weak four card suits).

I absolute agree with this. In the FES, you use "length points" and other adjustements to evaluate your card. So, if you use this, you quite often open 14 or 18 HCP hands with 1 NT.

And to anther post from you: You treat 5422 as balanced, so after 1 Club-1Diamond, pd with 4225 will bid 1 NT, not 1 Spade.

Kind Regards

Roland

[the hog]

Some of us don't regard a 4441 stiff hon hand as "off shape" lol

After a 1 NT opening from East, West bid 3 NT.
I agree, that with 10 balanced HCPs and 4432, it often is a good idea to do so.
But I really want to know, if this pair had bid the same way if the cards had been
QJ54 K2
A932 KQ10754
107 J84
K64 A3
Then they had been the only ones to play 3 NT -1 or -2 opps. the field with 4 H =.

They would absolutely not bid the same way, as the 4432 would have staymaned. You might have noticed my comment that QT is good in NT and poor in a suit contract.

[Codo]

Aha Ron, now I know...

so the differenc e between opening 1 NT and 1 Heart is
K2 KQ10754 J84 A3

compared with

KT KQ10754 984 A3

?

Again, just a little change and no play in 3 NT after a diamond lead nearly no play after a spade lead, but about 50 % in 4 Heart....

Actually, I will open

KT Q94 A3 KQ10754

1 NT while playing 15-17 and accept any inivitation from pd for game.
But with a 6 card major, I am not convinced at all.

Kind Regards

Roland

[the hog]

Now now Roland, don't be facetious. We'll have to start calling you Colin the Corgi. lol. Look at the Responder's hand. This time he would stayman; with QT doubleton he would not. The opening remains the same in either case, of course. Anyway who am I to argue with success? Courtney wins more at the rubber bridge table than Zia and Gunnar Hallberg combined.
Cheers
Ron

[inquiry]

In the US, I think people who always open 15-17 point 4-4-4-1 hand 1NT would run afowl of the ACBL rules.

The ACBL General Convention Chart states, "A notrump opening or overcall is natural if not unbalanced (generally, no singleton or void and only one or two doubletons)."

Clearly, the "generally" means you may from time to time open 1NT with a singleton, based upon your bridge judgement. But the ACBL webpage, while addressing this very issue says that opening 1NT with a singleton should be:

• It is a rare occurrence (no more than 1% of the time)
  
• Partner expects you to have at least two cards in each suit
  
• You and your partner have no agreements which enable you to discover that partner has a singleton

Clearly the 1NT bidders here have not indicated any agreement to find the singleton, but the "rare event" is thrown out the window if they treat 4-4-4-1's as balanced as a rule.

The ACBL page goes on to say, "[if they] open all 4--4--4--1 hands with 1NT, you should report such to the director. The director should determine whether the pair's notrump opening is natural or conventional. ". If you open this hand 1NT, because of suit quality, singleton Ace, but most 4-4-4-1 hands with your minor, no problem. But if you open all 4441 hand 1NT, in the US at least, you may run afowl of the issue.

I took the above quotes from:http://66.147.103.154/misc/notrumpwithsingleton.htm

I have opened 1NT with 4-4-4-1 hands. But generally when I felt I had no useful rebid if partner bid my short suit. Say I held...

S-A
H-QTxx
D-AKQx
C-J9xx

On 1D-1S what do I bid?
1NT - huge underbid?
2H - huge overbid?
2C - on Jack fourth?
2D - on a four card suit?
2N - you got to be kidding?

But the hand beat to death here... I have an easy rebid. 1S. Promise 4S's non-forcing. Nothing seems simplier to me.

Ben

[Codo]

Hi Ben,

you are known as an answer giver:
So, why do you fear with your hand a 2 club rebid.

What are your fears?

What will happen after your bid?

What is the worst case?

Kind Regards

Roland

[hrothgar]

>But the hand beat to death here... I have an easy rebid. 1S.
>Promise 4S's non-forcing. Nothing seems simplier to me.

A few comments:

First, what is your planned rebid over
1D - 1NT?

Second, if you decide to rebid 1S, you are simply postponing your problem.
Your next rebid will be much more difficult.

[inquiry]

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>But the hand beat to death here... I have an easy rebid. 1S.
>Promise 4S's non-forcing. Nothing seems simplier to me.

A few comments:

First, what is your planned rebid over
1D - 1NT?

Second, if you decide to rebid 1S, you are simply postponing your problem.
Your next rebid will be much more difficult.

What do I plan to bid over 1NT? 2 CLUBS. The opponents have at least 9 hearts, and maybe 10. Partner has at least one four card minor. 2 Clubs now finds our fit. Even if partner is sitting on a 10 pt max, 3NT will not be a joy unless partner can raise to 3 of either minor with a five card fit, or better yet, bid 2 of a major with a max and fit to show where his stuff is hidding.

What do I plan to rebid on:

1D-1H-1S-1NT?

Here too, I plan to rebid 2C. Thus, this is not a rebid problem at all. Yes, I know what you are thinking. Your partner will drop you with 10 or 11 hcp. No way. With a 4 clubs and 10 or 11 he will raise to 3C. I have bid out my distribution, more or less. Partner will play me for 4-1-4-4, 4-0-5-4, or 4-0-4-5.

I am without discomfort with a 2Club rebid over 1NT by partner, either directly after 1D or after I get a chance to show my BIDDABLE spade suit. And the good news, I know EXACTLY what to bid on the following two auctions...

1d-1h-1s-2s

and

1d-1h-1s-p (well, I don't get a bid, but 1s is likely the best contract, and can't get there any other way).

Ben

[inquiry]

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Hi Ben,

you are known as an answer giver:
So, why do you fear with your hand a 2 club rebid.

What are your fears?

What will happen after your bid?

What is the worst case?

Kind Regards

Roland

Fear of a 2Club rebid...
1) miss 1NT when it is the best contract
2) play in 2C with J9xx opposite xxx

What will happen after I bid 2C?
1) partner bids 2S... ok I pass, np
2) partner takes preference back to 2D on xx or xxx, or passes with 1NT playing better, or when partner has a weak hand with 5-4 in the majors, but not up to "risking" showing his 4 card heart suit on a likey "misfit hand"

What is the worse case?
Hard to say, maybe something like 1d-1s-2c-4h (splinter)-5c (or 5D)- DBL catching partner with S-KQJT H-K D-JT98 C-Qxxx and we get wacked, as someone is looking at H-A and club AKT8, and with 3NT rolling home. Against 5Dx it could go CAK, club ruff, H-ACE, club ruff.... down three with 3NT rolling home.

I just used this hand to illustrate that while I never advocate opening or overcalling 1NT with a singleton, I can construct hands where I would do it.

Ben

[inquiry]

Proves nothing, but I just watched Fred open 1NT with the following hand....

S - K
H - J986
D - AQ94
C - AQ32

I think the 1NT bid with this hand is also similar to my belief as to when to open. If the majors were reverse, I wonder if fred would open 1NT or 1 of a minor...

I asked Fred if he would have opened 1D or 1NT if his majors were reversed... his reply was... "1D most of the time at least (may depend upon partner/opps/state of the match).

An answer I certainly can live with...

Ben

[the hog]

The ACBL page goes on to say, "[if they] open all 4--4--4--1 hands with 1NT, you should report such to the director. The director should determine whether the pair's notrump opening is natural or conventional. ". If you open this hand 1NT, because of suit quality, singleton Ace, but most 4-4-4-1 hands with your minor, no problem. But if you open all 4441 hand 1NT, in the US at least, you may run afowl of the issue.

Not that I play in the States but what would the situation be if you opened 4441s 1NT only if they contained s/t A or K?. Reading the rule you cited, this would seem to be legal Ben?

[fred]

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when you hold 4-4 in minor, which suit do you open? 2/1 or sayc. i prefer 1c,
coz i think which could save space for pd, in case he has weak hand with c
suit. but pd said i should open 1d. any comments or thoughts? or purely depend
on partnership style?

Someone asked me my opinion about this. I have not read
the entire thread so sorry in advance if I say some things
that others have already said.

The question is more complex than that which the original
posted asked. Really you have to consider what you would
open with the following hand types that include 4-4 in the minors:

A) 12-14 balanced
18-19 balanced
C) 1444
D) 4144

In addition, if you use weak notrumps, you have to consider
what to open with 15-17 balanced and 4-4 in the minors.
Also, with the 4144 and 1444 hands, having a very strong
hand can make a difference. Playing 4-card-majors might also
make a difference to the 1444 and 4144 hands, but I don't
have enough experience playing 4-card majors to offer any
intelligent feedback in this area. Finally, whether or not your
partner is a passed hand should sometimes impact your
decision as to which suit to open.

With A) there are some clear advantages to opening 1D:

1) The 1C opening is already "overloaded" in "standard"
systems. There are many situations in the bidding and when
defending when partner has to guess your shape. Giving him
more shapes to think about when you open 1C will make
his task more difficult.

2) Ease of rebid in auctions like:

1x 2S DBL (neg) Pass

If you have, say, 2344 with no spade stopper, you will
be much better off to open 1D than 1C.

In case with 18-19 balanced, neither 1) nor 2) above
are likely to be an issue. 1) is less likely as you will end
up on much defense less often. 2) is less likely because
you are more likely to have a spade stopper and you can
always cuebid if you do not have a spade stopper.

The main advantage of opening 1C on strong hands
with 4-4 in the minors is that partner will not pass 1C
with a hand like:

xxx
xxx
Kxxxxx
x

but he would pass 1D if his minors were reversed.

The same argument applies to very strong hands
with 4144 distribution.

I don't think I have ever opened 1C with 1444, but
it is (barely) possible for me to imagine holding a hand
with which I might do so.

In my experience, there is a lot to be said for opening
your WEAKER minor with 18-19 balanced and 4-4 in
the minors when your partner is a passed hand. Doing
so is unlikely to hurt your partner, but it may make it
more difficult for the opps to find the best opening lead.

I do not advocate this practice when your partner has
not passed yet. When slam is still a live possibility, you
don't want to be "tricking" your partner.

In practice all this adds up to opening 1D with well
over 90% of hands that contain 4-4 in the minors.

These are only the reasons that I use to justify the style
that I prefer to play. I have fairly strong convictions that
I am "correct" about this, but there are plenty of good
players who would strongly disagree.

Really I do not want to get into a debate about this
(been there done that). I am just offering my thoughts
on the subject.

Finally, I should say that I am very much against the use
of "never" and "always" in discussions such as this one.
Regardless of whether your partnership's tendencies
are to open 1C or 1D, you should always be free to use
your judgment and open the other suit if it seems like
the right thing to do on a given hand.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[bridgek]

An another reason for opening 1D, is that the opp can't bid it any more, and it's not so bad if they bid 2kl over 1D. when you're 33 it's reversed 1D form opp over 1C doesn't hurt, but 2C over 1D is not so nice