BBO Discussion Forums: article on reverse - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

article on reverse

#1 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,033
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2013-March-29, 18:56

there was an article on reverses on thee bbo lonline within the last month.
has anyone seen this posted on the web.

what im looking for is the name of the convention. similar to Lebensohl where is used the lower of 4th suit and 2N as the weak bid.
ie 1-1-2- 2 is the weak bid
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,581
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2013-March-29, 19:12

View Poststeve2005, on 2013-March-29, 18:56, said:

there was an article on reverses on thee bbo lonline within the last month.
has anyone seen this posted on the web.

what im looking for is the name of the convention. similar to Lebensohl where is used the lower of 4th suit and 2N as the weak bid.
ie 1-1-2- 2 is the weak bid


As far as I know this is still called Lebensohl.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#3 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,240
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2013-March-29, 19:26

View Poststeve2005, on 2013-March-29, 18:56, said:

there was an article on reverses on thee bbo lonline within the last month.
has anyone seen this posted on the web.

what im looking for is the name of the convention. similar to Lebensohl where is used the lower of 4th suit and 2N as the weak bid.
ie 1-1-2- 2 is the weak bid


When I was in Australia in 1991, they called it "blackout". It was already common elsewhere, of course, but did not have a name known to me. Google is your friend.
0

#4 User is offline   Mbodell 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,871
  • Joined: 2007-April-22
  • Location:Santa Clara, CA

Posted 2013-March-29, 20:01

I call it (and think it is standard to call it) Imbergman [the cheapest of 4th suit and 2nt is weak].

The thread you are looking for is permanently pinned in the intermediate and advance forum from mikeh called a primer on reverses. It is 6 years old but still really good and was in the BBO news a couple of weeks ago. http://www.bridgebas...everse-bidding/ is the link.
0

#5 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,240
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2013-March-29, 20:21

View PostMbodell, on 2013-March-29, 20:01, said:

I call it (and think it is standard to call it) Imbergman [the cheapest of 4th suit and 2nt is weak].

The thread you are looking for is permanently pinned in the intermediate and advance forum from mikeh called a primer on reverses. It is 6 years old but still really good and was in the BBO news a couple of weeks ago. http://www.bridgebas...everse-bidding/ is the link.


FWIW, I think the convention described there is Blackout even though it is referred to as Ingberman (which was a slight modification to Lebensohl over reverses in that 1d-1s-2h-2n-3c was reverse lebensohl and 3d+ were GF).

Blackout introduced lower of 4th suit and 2NT at the two-level, which was new. But if you want a definitive answer, I would ask Tim Bourke, who I am sure will know.

Edit: after a quick search, I am attributing it to Pete Pender, though he did not call it "blackout" (June 1988 The Bridge World and I would trust them to know and say if it were previously published or widely known, particularly since Ingberman was a mathematician from New York, so if I am mistaken, blame Jeff Rubens).
0

#6 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,739
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-March-29, 21:46

View Poststeve2005, on 2013-March-29, 18:56, said:

there was an article on reverses on thee bbo lonline within the last month.
has anyone seen this posted on the web.

what im looking for is the name of the convention. similar to Lebensohl where is used the lower of 4th suit and 2N as the weak bid.
ie 1-1-2- 2 is the weak bid



ya i hate this but seems to be an outgrowth from hating 2nt as the weak bid with only 4s.

with that said peter pender and tim are great players.
0

#7 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,763
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2013-March-29, 21:52

View Postmike777, on 2013-March-29, 21:46, said:

ya i hate this but seems to be an outgrowth from hating 2nt as the weak bid with only 4s.

it has nothing to do with hating 2N as the weak bid with only 4, whatever that means.

One uses the weaker of 4th suit or 2N for at least 2 cogent reasons.

One is simple bridge theory: conservation of space. Why take up bidding space needlessly?

The other reason is to allow opener, the strong hand, the opportunity, with the right hand type, to bid a natural, descriptive 2N over the 4th suit.

If you 'hate it', I suspect it is partly because you don't play it and partly because you don't understand it. It's like people who prefer standard new minor to 2 way new minor: everyone who has said that to me and then played 2 way now prefers 2 way: their dislike was based on inherent conservatism plus ignorance.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#8 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,739
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-March-29, 21:54

I knew i should add this and someone would say what mikeh said.


prefer to save space with extras not with weak.

btw1 2s would be weakish with 5


btw2 I would expect pard to open mexican 2d with 18-19 often on this auction with no shortness if that adds to the discussion. If not nevermind.
0

#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,240
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2013-March-30, 12:07

View PostPhilKing, on 2013-March-29, 20:21, said:

FWIW, I think the convention described there is Blackout even though it is referred to as Ingberman (which was a slight modification to Lebensohl over reverses in that 1d-1s-2h-2n-3c was reverse lebensohl and 3d+ were GF).

Blackout introduced lower of 4th suit and 2NT at the two-level, which was new. But if you want a definitive answer, I would ask Tim Bourke, who I am sure will know.

Edit: after a quick search, I am attributing it to Pete Pender, though he did not call it "blackout" (June 1988 The Bridge World and I would trust them to know and say if it were previously published or widely known, particularly since Ingberman was a mathematician from New York, so if I am mistaken, blame Jeff Rubens).

If I'm not mistaken, Ingberman predates Lebensohl. Never heard of "blackout".
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#10 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,247
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 2013-March-30, 12:23

View Poststeve2005, on 2013-March-29, 18:56, said:

there was an article on reverses on thee bbo lonline within the last month.
has anyone seen this posted on the web.

what im looking for is the name of the convention. similar to Lebensohl where is used the lower of 4th suit and 2N as the weak bid.
ie 1-1-2- 2 is the weak bid

Ingberman ... but Lebensohl3 also uses the 4th suit ( 2-of-the-other-Major ) as the weakness bid for the special cases two where 1C is opened and 2D is the reverse ( and these are the only cases ) .

See posts 55 and 56 in the primer thread below:

http://www.bridgebas...ng/page__st__40
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
0

#11 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,240
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2013-March-30, 16:50

View Postblackshoe, on 2013-March-30, 12:07, said:

If I'm not mistaken, Ingberman predates Lebensohl. Never heard of "blackout".


You may be right about Ingberman predating Lebensohl (or rather Lebensohl being extended to reverse sequences), but that is a different issue. If you can show a reference where Ingberman uses fourth suit at the two-level to show the weak hand, then show me. I do not believe such exists, but I could be wrong.

View Postdaveharty, on 2012-September-10, 07:55, said:

I think there was a recent thread on the distinction between Lebensohl and Ingberman, but I'm too lazy to search for it. To summarize what I believe to be the case:

Lebensohl (over reverses) and Ingberman are identical EXCEPT in the case where opener reverses into 2D. In that case, Lebensohl uses the lower of 4th suit/2NT as the artificial weak bid; Ingberman always uses 2NT as the artificial weak bid. Therefore, in Jillybean's original post, North (if 2NT was intended as the artificial weak bid, whether or not 3NT was a planned followup) was playing Ingberman, not Lebensohl.

I think it's confusing to use the term "Lebensohl" in this context, because many people assume that it has the same structure as Lebensohl in other auctions, so that all weak responder hands go through 2NT. I'd suggest using Tim Bourke's designation, "Modified Blackout", if I thought anyone would listen.


Dave, help me out here. And stick to your guns - call it modified blackout - not Lebensohl. I'm listening.
0

#12 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,247
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 2013-March-30, 17:45

View PostPhilKing, on 2013-March-30, 16:50, said:

You may be right about Ingberman predating Lebensohl (or rather Lebensohl being extended to reverse sequences), but that is a different issue. If you can show a reference where Ingberman uses fourth suit at the two-level to show the weak hand, then show me. I do not believe such exists, but I could be wrong.


http://www.bridgebas...ng/page__st__40
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
0

#13 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,240
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2013-March-30, 17:50

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-30, 17:45, said:



Lol. This is evidence of what, exactly? I may be going out on a limb, but I am guessing you always believe Wiki.

You get that I am talking about original sources - Ingberman was already dead when Pender made his modifications.
0

#14 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,247
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 2013-March-30, 18:37

Help me out here, mikeh... I'm dying .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
1

#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,240
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2013-March-31, 22:32

II can never remember exactly what the very subtle differences between Ingberman and the more modern (and, I think, twice modified and now including some of Ingberman's original method) "Lebensohl over reverses" are. So I'll let the rest of you argue over the details, if you like.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
1

#16 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,033
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2013-April-01, 10:17

So i gather that Lebensohl now also uses 4th suit as the negative bid if lower than 2N.
this only happens after any 12 reverse, 1-1NT-2 or 1-1N-2
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#17 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,240
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2013-April-01, 16:59

View Poststeve2005, on 2013-April-01, 10:17, said:

So i gather that Lebensohl now also uses 4th suit as the negative bid if lower than 2N.
this only happens after any 12 reverse, 1-1NT-2 or 1-1N-2


:(

Just call it Aardvark, or Modified Aardvark or Wombat or ...
0

#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,247
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 2013-April-01, 17:26

View Poststeve2005, on 2013-April-01, 10:17, said:

So i gather that Lebensohl now also uses 4th suit as the negative bid if lower than 2N.
this only happens after any 12 reverse, 1-1NT-2 or 1-1N-2

[ EDIT: 4th suit negative bid is ] :
only for the TWO 1C ... 2D reverse cases... NOT for any other .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
0

#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,663
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2013-April-02, 05:41

Like Phil, I know this as Blackout. A reasonable alternative is to use transfers.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#20 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,033
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2013-April-02, 06:36

click for blackout on wikipedia

Responder then rebids as follows:
A rebid of his own suit shows five or more cards in the suit and is forcing for one round, but does not promise any extra strength.
The cheapest bid of the fourth suit is forcing and 2NT shows exactly four cards in his own suit and a minimum hand for his 1-over-1.
The non-cheapest bid of the fourth suit is forcing and 2NT shows exactly four cards in his own suit, forcing to game but not suitable for any higher bid.
A preference back to the opening suit or raising the reverse-suit are both natural, game-forcing with mild slam-try or better.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users