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A primer on reverse bidding

#41 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-September-03, 04:12

bluecalm, on Sep 2 2010, 10:11 AM, said:

Ok, so I open 1NT with every 2-4-5-2 15-16.
Rebid 2 with 1-4-5-3 15-16 and happily reverse with 3-4-5-1 as my hand is supposedly stronger having support for partner suit.
Is that right ?

I think this is good advice. Also, with 4-6 shape and good suits I would definitely reverse with 15-16 HCP, mikeh and I have had long discussions about this on the forums.

Of course, how strong your reverses are is a matter of style, and what is important is that you discuss this with partner. If you play them much lighter than mikeh, it may be better to play 2S as NF.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#42 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2011-September-03, 05:38

Let's say we play that 1-1; 2-2 is forcing, as espoused by Frances Hinden. Two questions:

1. Can responder then pass 1-1; 2-2; 3? How about 1-1; 2-2; 3?

2. What does 1-1; 2-2NT; 3-3 show?
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#43 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-September-03, 13:06

As an aside and a little off-topic, I think it would be great if we had other primers in the B/i section. Mike's original article was written over four years ago.
Where there's ink there's squid Phil.
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#44 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2011-September-04, 02:58

View Postmgoetze, on 2011-September-03, 05:38, said:

Let's say we play that 1-1; 2-2 is forcing, as espoused by Frances Hinden. Two questions:
I play this as forcing (I don't know how standard this is) and below are how I play the follow ups (maybe not best/standard, but that is our system)

View Postmgoetze, on 2011-September-03, 05:38, said:

1. Can responder then pass 1-1; 2-2; 3? How about 1-1; 2-2; 3?
After 2 we play that only the raise to 3 and 4th suit are forcing.

View Postmgoetze, on 2011-September-03, 05:38, said:

2. What does 1-1; 2-2NT; 3-3 show?
direct 3 after the reverse would be a very good -suit.
2 followed by 3 over a bid by opener is forcing for us: 6c that is not good enough for a direct 3 bid.
=> We decided that 1-1; 2-2NT; 3-3 shows a minimum hand with 6c and is NF. This is easy because it makes all 3-level bids (also 4th suit) by responder after going via 2NT NF.
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#45 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-September-04, 03:21

View Postmgoetze, on 2011-September-03, 05:38, said:


1. Can responder then pass 1-1; 2-2; 3? How about 1-1; 2-2; 3?



absolutely
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#46 User is offline   ripeAces 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 06:12

Consider the hand:
: AQJ7
: AQJ98
: 65
: 93

In a system like Acol which alows 4 card openers, I assume that you would be forced to open 1 since you would not have enough strength to reverse the rebid if you open 1.
Is this correct?

How do you bid this if playing 5-card majors?
If we open 1 we may need to reverse the rebid into 2 but we cannot open the spades with only 4.
I assume that we really cannot open 1 or 1 in this situation since we may get into huge trouble if our partner passes especially if we are vulnerable?

Im a new player, so a fundamental misunderstanding is possible.
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#47 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 06:27

If you open 1H you will not really have a rebid problem playing standard american.

Some of the time partner will have 3+ hearts and raise hearts.
Some of the time partner will have 4+ spades and bid 1S, in which case you can raise spades.
Some of the time partner will have 10+ points and bid 2C or 2D, in which case you have enough to force to game (and even if you didn't rebidding 2H would not show 6 hearts, it would just show a minimum).
When partner has none of those, he will bid 1N, and you can comfortably pass since he has at most 10 points (no game), and not 4 spades (no 1 spade bid) and not 3 hearts (didn't raise hearts).

If you play 2/1, you might have a problem sometimes when partner bids a forcing NT. However, a 2C reply to a forcing NT in standard american does not promise more than a 2 card suit because of this exact situation. If partner has 2 hearts and 4 clubs, he will always take you back to 2H. If partner has 1 heart and 4 clubs that means he has 5+ diamonds (since he cannot have 4 spades...he did not respond 1S), and he will bid 2D. So you are never going to play a 6 card fit, if partner passes he will have 5 clubs in 2/1. And remember, a large portion of the time partner will have 3+ hearts, or 4+ spades, or a game forcing hand, or the opps will bid, in which case there will be no rebid problem anyways. I wouldn't worry about it.
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#48 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 06:49

View PostripeAces, on 2011-September-25, 06:12, said:

Consider the hand:
: AQJ7
: AQJ98
: 65
: 93

In a system like Acol which alows 4 card openers, I assume that you would be forced to open 1 since you would not have enough strength to reverse the rebid if you open 1.
Is this correct?

No, in Acol they also open 1.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#49 User is offline   ripeAces 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 07:09

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-September-25, 06:27, said:

If you open 1H you will not really have a rebid problem playing standard american.

Some of the time partner will have 3+ hearts and raise hearts.
Some of the time partner will have 4+ spades and bid 1S, in which case you can raise spades.
Some of the time partner will have 10+ points and bid 2C or 2D, in which case you have enough to force to game (and even if you didn't rebidding 2H would not show 6 hearts, it would just show a minimum).
When partner has none of those, he will bid 1N, and you can comfortably pass since he has at most 10 points (no game), and not 4 spades (no 1 spade bid) and not 3 hearts (didn't raise hearts).

If you play 2/1, you might have a problem sometimes when partner bids a forcing NT. However, a 2C reply to a forcing NT in standard american does not promise more than a 2 card suit because of this exact situation. If partner has 2 hearts and 4 clubs, he will always take you back to 2H. If partner has 1 heart and 4 clubs that means he has 5+ diamonds (since he cannot have 4 spades...he did not respond 1S), and he will bid 2D. So you are never going to play a 6 card fit, if partner passes he will have 5 clubs in 2/1. And remember, a large portion of the time partner will have 3+ hearts, or 4+ spades, or a game forcing hand, or the opps will bid, in which case there will be no rebid problem anyways. I wouldn't worry about it.


Thanks, the first half of your reply makes a lot of sense.
I do not know much about 2/1 so Ill have to do a bit of reading.

You didnt comment on what happens if not playing 5-card majors.
Since your partner may not support hearts with what he thinks is only a 4-3 fit.
Should we rather bid 1, or is it still best to bid 1.

Thanks again
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#50 User is offline   ripeAces 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 07:14

Sorry I see somebody else already replied to the first situation
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#51 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 07:39

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-September-25, 06:27, said:


If you play 2/1, you might have a problem sometimes when partner bids a forcing NT. However, a 2C reply to a forcing NT in standard american does not promise more than a 2 card suit because of this exact situation. If partner has 2 hearts and 4 clubs, he will always take you back to 2H. If partner has 1 heart and 4 clubs that means he has 5+ diamonds (since he cannot have 4 spades...he did not respond 1S), and he will bid 2D. So you are never going to play a 6 card fit, if partner passes he will have 5 clubs in 2/1.


After
1 - 1NT (F)
2
Would you really rebid (as responder) 2 with (weakish) 3154? Opener will leave you in 2 with 3514..
Would be a better spot more often than s?
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#52 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 08:30

Funny, I came back here because I realized I probably overstated how often partner will bid 2D with 3154.

I think it depends on several factors:

1) Suit quality. (I would guess bidding QJT9x would be automatic on any hand, bidding Axxxx would probably be unlikely), specifically your spot cards and how well a 5-2 or 5-1 would play. This is definitely the most important factor.

2) Hand quality. If you wanted to keep the auction open, like if you had 8+ points and might make a game if partner has a max 16/17/bad 18, you would be much more likely to bid 2D, but if you wanted the auction to die you'd be more likely to pass.

Anyways, I was trying to state simplistically why you shouldn't worry much about rebids even in 2/1, but I definitely overstated 3154 bidding 2D. I guess a more accurate thing to say "Even in the cases that partner doesn't have 4+ spades, or 3+ hearts, or a GF, and when the opponents bid (surely this makes up a majority of the cases) and bids 1N, he will still go back to 2H with 2 hearts and 4 clubs, and when he doesn't have that he will often have 6+ diamonds or 5 clubs in which case 2C or 2D is fine, and when he doesn't have that and is 3154 he will sometimes bid 2D. So when you open 1H the chances of it going 1H-1N-2C-p and you are in a 4-2 fit are extremely negligible, don't worry about it."
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#53 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2011-September-25, 08:51

View PostripeAces, on 2011-September-25, 06:12, said:

Consider the hand:
: AQJ7
: AQJ98
: 65
: 93

In a system like Acol which alows 4 card openers, I assume that you would be forced to open 1 since you would not have enough strength to reverse the rebid if you open 1.
Is this correct?

No, you would open 1 & rebid 2 if partner responds 2 or 2.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#54 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2013-February-25, 08:11

Logging in to bridgebase I saw a sequel to this excellent guide. I don't know how this part II is accessible, but perhaps it would be a good idea to sticky it here as well.

I noticed that mikeh recommended opener to bid a non-forcing

1D - 1S
2H - 2NT
3C

holding x AKxx AKJxx Axx. I would have forced to game on this 19-count, even though I recognize that game might be poor opposite a poorly fitting minimum. Still, it seems to me that the non-forcing 3C is a little controversial. Perhaps a hand such as AQxx AKJxx Kxx would have been a better example.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#55 User is online   diana_eva 

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Posted 2013-February-27, 03:41

The BBO News version:

Part I
Part II
Part III

There may be typos, pls PM me if you spot any and I will correct them.

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2013-February-27, 23:47


#56 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2013-February-27, 15:19

I don't know about "mistakes" ... just what agreements you have with partner .

Over Reverses, there is Ingberman which mikeh discusses but there is also Lebensohl3 ( Leb3 ).

For the special cases of the 2D reverse after a 1C open , BOTH versions use "the 4th suit ( 2oM , available on the 2-level ) as the artificial weakness bid " ( not 2NT as with other Reverse auctions ) . I don't know "who" invented it, but both versions now use it .

There are only 2 auctions for those cases
In general:
1C - 1M
2D - 2oM

One example is:
1C - 1S
2D - 2H! = the weakness bid

The other is:
1C - 1H
2D - 2S! = the weakness bid

The only difference that I can surmise from explanations for the 2 methods is the meaning for the following 2 auctions where Responder rebids his Major ( M ) :

1C - 1M
2D - 2M

For either method:
Some references say 2M = weak, NF.
Others say 2M = forcing 1 round.
And others say 2M = GF .

I really don't know which is right or better .... just what you agree on .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#57 User is online   diana_eva 

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Posted 2013-February-27, 16:58

Oh, when I said there may be mistakes I just meant typos or 12 cards in a diagram - that sort of thing :)

#58 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2013-February-28, 08:31

I have another "addition" from my files....

for the auctions starting with 1minor open , 1S response, and the 2H reverse :

1m - 1S
2H - 2S = ??

Some Ingberman references say 2S = weak, NF.
Other sources say 2S = forcing, 1 round, but may be weak.

If you play the latter, then you cannot stop in 2S .

If you are really weak but have a 6+ card suit, you can bid the weakness bid ( 2NT! ) and stop in 3S:

1m - 1S
2H - 2NT!
3C ( forced ) - 3S
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#59 User is offline   biggerclub 

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Posted 2013-May-25, 13:22

deleted by author.
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#60 User is offline   kael chi 

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Posted 2013-July-07, 07:22

Nice post.
Thank you!
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