[ArcLight]

No one likes to be lectured. But what do you do if a pick up pard makes a bid you disagree with? (not a horrible bid though)

(Obviously no personal attacks or insults)

Pard made a Negative double, I was forced to respond, then they raised me.
I felt they should not have raised me, as their hand wasn't much above what a Neg Dbl shows at the 2 level. I said if I had a better hand for that suit, it was up to me to raise. Or if they had a bit better hand, they could raise.

It wasn't a horrible bid, but I think it was wrong, and explained (Lectured ) why. Pick up pard got mad and left, and one of the opponents said its not nice to lecture people.

To some extent yes, but does that mean I should never say anything? Then how does one learn if one makes mistakes? I learn when a pard points out a mistake. I dont get mad and quit. I want to improve so I listen to what people say and think about it.

Whats a "nicer" way of saying -

"Pard I was expecting more for your raise."
(and when they give a stupid reply 'well I had 9 points for my 2 level Neg Dbl')

"pard, thats not much more than the minimum a neg dbl at that level shows". "Why not leave it to me to decide to go higher?"

(then they argue a bit = a waste of our time. and they quit)

I guess it would be a lot easier to discuss things in person, and this is one of the down sides of electronic media

I dont want to get a bad reputation as a "mean" partner. But I do like to discuss things. (I made a carding mistake, a different pard pointed it out, and I agreed I made a mistake. No hard feelings at all)

[sceptic]

how about at start of game, pard do you mind if we discuss bids as the prob will be some misunderstandings to start with, if they say NO then dont do it, if they say ok feel free

[jillybean]

IMO, best to remain silent unless advice is solicited

[uday]

Not everyone is here to learn to play better. Some are here just to play. Some people are insulted when they are lectured. What is obviously wrong to you might be obviously right to someone at a level that is far below or far above your own.


So, I see two ways to avoid a visit from abuse@bridgebaes.com


One: ask partner if they enjoy discussing hands or whether they'd prefer to play w/o analysis

Two: Don't say anything, or, if you do, don't say anything unless it is your fault.


IMO, there are no nice ways to offer unsolicited and possible undesired advice to someone who is a complete stranger. Sure, many would not be offended, but equally, many would be. And when you toss in the language barrier, things get even more likely to cause hard feelings.

uday

[OrShoham]

For what it's worth, I try to say something positive to my partner whenever they make a good decision (opps, as well). Well done, good try, excellent bid, good stop. Whatever is relevant.
Doing that also allows me to do the reverse politely - if I don't say anything positive after a hand, there was probably a blatant mistake. Most of my partners, even pickup ones, notice this after a while

[Flame]

The main problem is that if you are not an expert you will many times be trying to teach him something wrong, i can tell you more then 50% of the times i see ppl lecture they teach mistakes.
To your specific lecture it might also be a mistake ,i wont get into it here, if you want show us the all thing and ill tell you, its far from clear that a support after aNgetive D need extra, yes it has your logic or a general logic, but that is just the main problem , ppl see a logic and lectue, but they still mistake.
For example that will be 100% clear, picture two of your opponents, one opening 1sp with 13 cards in this suit, later his partner lecture to him that with 10 hcp you dont open, you need 12, he keep explaining the system, with lots of logic, and you sit their laughing inside yourself. This actually happends alot more then you can think. So my point dont lecture something that come from your logic, lecture something that come from your teacher or your book (which can also be wrong but the chances of being right are better)

[pbleighton]

Don't say anything, ever, except if they have described themselves as Novice or Beginner. Even then, I tend not to say anything.

Peter

[Chamaco]

ArcLight, on Dec 26 2004, 05:15 AM, said:

No one likes to be lectured. But what do you do if a pick up pard makes a bid you disagree with?

-- cut --

Pard made a Negative double, I was forced to respond, then they raised me.
I felt they should not have raised me, .....

-- cut --

Whats a "nicer" way of saying -

If you really cannot do without commenting the hand, one way to start the discussion in a non-aggressive tone could be:

"I am sorry, pard, with my usual pard, we play negative doubles promising *this and that*.
In your style, what are the max and min requirements for the double, so that the next time we'll be in tune ?"

Better yet avoiding altogether comments if you are only in a pickup pship.

[pclayton]

If you are playing with your favorite partner in an online or live game, do you lecture? We try not to; not even make faces. My favorite partnership has 'code words' that we use to shut each other up if necessary. It usually turns a tense situation into a funny one too

If you are unsure how to deal with anyone across from you, pick up a copy of Sontag's, "The Bridge Bum". There is a great section on how to deal with CHO. In a nutshell, he suggests shouldering the blame for issues whenever you can, which works real well (don't overdo it, lest you sound patronizing though). Marty Bergen has some good points too in one of his books (I cant remember which).

Both should be required reading for anyone that plays the game professionally, or anyone that has received a ZT penalty.

As far as a pickup game, if the person has expressed a tone that he/she wants advice, then I don't see a problem with offering advice. And I am not shy about 'discussing' hands with others who seem to have problems with my play.

[Double !]

Three simple questions: 1) what is the point of saying anything, what are you trying to accomplish? 2) what do you anticipate will be the outcome or your partner's reactions to any comments that you make? (How would you feel/ react?)
3) How will this help the PARTNERSHIP? (even if temporary).

[epeeist]

I've played with some players who explicitly asked me to criticize (positive and negative) their bidding and play in a tournament. Which I did (when each round was over, waiting for the next). I also criticized my own bidding and play. And I'm not that good, so I had a lot to criticize about my own actions...

Also, it seems to me there's a difference (sometimes subtle) between lectures and e.g. clarifying what a bidding sequence meant.

Obviously this is subject to correction from what uday or another yellow might say, but I have generally assumed that a polite inquiry related to clarifying a situation (in case it recurs in a future round) is appropriate. For instance, I once had my 2♣ opening passed by a partner who rated himself as intermediate, had SAYC in his profile, and had explicitly agreed to play SAYC (I'd entered the tournament with a stranger). I thought, and still think, it was fair for me to (not rudely) clarify what bidding system we were using, that 2♣ was strong not weak, etc. If I said nothing, what would happen if I had another strong forcing opening later on in the tournament? Similar with issues over what card signals meant, there was a need to clarify the situation.

Of course, questions may seem like sarcasm...("I think we had a bidding misunderstanding, p, I intended 2♣ as strong and forcing" might seem polite to some, sarcastic to others).

To answer Double!'s questions explicitly : (1) Trying to reduce the chance of future bidding or carding misunderstandings in that same tournament; (2) I expect (well, maybe "hope for"... ) a response as polite as my question, just as I try (I try not to be a hypocrite) respond to questions about my bidding or mistakes I've made; (3) See (1), avoiding future misunderstandings, or at least clarifying the (true) skill level of my partner, so I may know to be more or less aggressive, jump to game instead of inviting or contrariwise pass invitations, etc.

[cnszsun]

I'm glad to hear comments on my bidding or playing. No matter you are better or worser than me, at least you force me to think. The reason behind it is i am still learning bridge.

[luke warm]

i'm on record already as being opposed to criticism of partner... phil made reference to bergen's book (it's points schmoints) where he discusses this... he has 11 or 12 steps to being a good partner...

having said that, i welcome systemic criticisms... anyone who makes a system mistake needs to know, imo, because unless they just forgot something they're under a wrong impression... as for play errors, i think they can wait till later... but before you criticize pard, make sure you aren't merely resulting the hand... that's as close to an unforgivable sin as i can think of in bridge, someone who constantly results a hand

[sceptic]

whatever you do at the table, , will be subject to misinterpretaion, I have said things that and I have had things said to me that offence has been taken or implied.

I have never intentionallly sat at a table and thought, I will offend someone nor did I expect to be offended, I am sure no one else does either, but that is what happens on line.

As in life not everyone takes things you say as you would expect, so unless no one speaks you can't cure the problem, so learn to be yourself for everyone you don't get on with, there are another 10 you will get on with.

someone has on their profile, look for your own mistakes not other peoples, unfortunately, you can't always see your own mistakes and it is nice to have them pointed out, may be you can put on your profile Comments welcomed, I have seen no lessons please, so respect that when it is there (I am not good enough to give lessons, but sometimes you need to say something), if you sit at a table in real life with some one you dont know, I believe that you discuss the basics.

How many of you sit at a table and play with a pick up P, without discussing anything until a bid is made. this is where the problems start I think, discuss things up front even the basics and ASK, can we discuss as we go along.


The point double made? what are you trying to accomplish, well I thought that was easy to answer, "play a decent game of bridge" and I dont think you can do that without discussion.

[ArcLight]

Ok, I get the idea. Thanks for the feedback.


Do you think this would be acceptable?

1) When sitting down with a new pick up pard I say "P, I want to improve and I learn from my mistakes. If I make a mistake please point it out."

Then I would say

"If we have a bidding miscommunication/mishap, do you mind discussing it?"


2) if the bididng mishap occurs then phrase it like:

"P, I wasn't sure what your ZZZ bid meant. What did you intend it to mean?"

or

"I wasn't sure how to bid that, how might I have bid that differently?"

or

"Did my ZZZ bid confuse you? I meant it to show ..."

[luke warm]

yeah that seems ok... this medium lends itself very easily to misunderstandings... and the language differences make it even worse in some cases... what sometimes looks like horrible abuse of partner, when read in english, might not have been intended that way when the words were thought in another language

[Flame]

ArcLight, on Dec 27 2004, 02:36 PM, said:

Ok, I get the idea. Thanks for the feedback.


Do you think this would be acceptable?

1) When sitting down with a new pick up pard I say "P, I want to improve and I learn from my mistakes. If I make a mistake please point it out."

Then I would say

"If we have a bidding miscommunication/mishap, do you mind discussing it?"


2) if the bididng mishap occurs then phrase it like:

"P, I wasn't sure what your ZZZ bid meant. What did you intend it to mean?"

or

"I wasn't sure how to bid that, how might I have bid that differently?"

or

"Did my ZZZ bid confuse you? I meant it to show ..."

Well not everyone want to discuss hands, some just want to play and not talk, some play bridge for 40 years and think their learning years are past long time ago, you need to feel the situation, see if partner welcome comments and making his own, if not just let him play, also you might want to find those who share your style of discussing and learning, add them to your friend list and try to play more with them. A fix partnership is much better suited for discussions.
I dont know what are your bridge skills or your picked up partner's skills but I wouldnt reccomend learning anything from these discussions, or put a big question mark on it untill you ask an expert, because most of the times you will learn wrong thing influenced by not witdh enough logic (not taking enough things into considerations) and worst your analyzing will be based on a specific hand which you have just played, or alteat you will give this specific hand a big place in your logic, while it might just be that the right bid or play is wrong for this hand but right for most other hands.
My advices to you, get into the partner seeking forum and find a good partner who want to improve. ask questions especially in the begginer's and intermidiate forum (this forum is best for getting answers even to hard question)
read the right books
good luck

[mycroft]

Quote

Do you think this would be acceptable?

1) When sitting down with a new pick up pard I say "P, I want to improve and I learn from my mistakes. If I make a mistake please point it out."

Then I would say...

I happen to be both one of those people who wants to know about my mistakes and can discuss them during the game with little loss of score later. There are very few of us. However, even I don't like the idea of "I want to learn from my mistakes" meaning "I want to point out yours." (the questions I did not quote I believe are safe - provided they mean what they say, and not "I want to point out your mistakes.")

All the experts' opinions I've read are "Don't discuss at the table. If you're in a regular partnership trying to improve, or playing with a pupil client, then go ahead, mash it out in the bar afterwards. Leave serious system discussions for days you aren't going to play at all." I believe that that means that when playing with pickups, you just grin and bear it. You'll never play with this person again, anyway, and is the gain from going right on the off chance that this happens again in the next 6 (or 20) boards worth the guaranteed hit from having a partner who's resenting being "taught" by someone he doesn't believe is better than he is? Remember the (fictitious) poll that found that "90% of bridge players are better than their partners."

I wrote, a few years ago, in one of my "novice" papers, this about partner's questions:

Quote

The correct answer to 90% of questions at the table that start "Why did you..." or "Why didn't you..." is "Because I'm a moron."  It's what partner wants to hear, and he won't stop asking questions until he gets you to admit it, so just do so immediately and move on.  You know, of course, that the unspoken half of the answer is "...for deciding to play with you." 

The exception is playing at a teaching table.  Teacher's "Why did you..." is trying to get your reasoning, so that she can explain how that reasoning fails, and what you should have been thinking about, instead.  Of course, she's still telling you that she's better than you are, but you knew that already, or you wouldn't have her as your teacher, would you?

Of course, this doesn't apply in the bar, or in the chat room after the game.

I'm certain that you have the partnership and the game's best interest in mind. Unfortunately, too many people who ask exactly what you are asking here are trying to come up with a "safe" way to say "look, I'm smarter than you are" - and there just isn't one. And you really don't want to get tarred with that brush; but you will by random pickup. That's what we're all trained into thinking, and 90+% of the time it's true.

Cynically (but unfortunately accurately) yours,
Michael.

[ArcLight]

> However, even I don't like the idea of "I want to learn from my mistakes" meaning "I want to point out yours."

You are misinterpreting the question. I do want to learn form my mistakes, and do want feed back. I might not agree with it, but I still want to her it (politely).

It does not mean "I want to point out yours."

Thats in the next part "Do you mind if we discuss bidding miscommunications?"

Ex. Pard has RKBW 1430 on his card, I explicityly say ok to that. Then when I bid 4NT he responds 5♣ with 2 Keycards. He didn't really know the convention.
So I ask "P, did I misinterpret your 5♣ response? I thought it showed 1 Keycard so I bailed out in 5♥" and leave it at that. No further comments from me. (he didn't realize the trump K counted as a Keycard)

[Flame]

ArcLight, on Dec 28 2004, 03:31 PM, said:

Ex. Pard has RKBW 1430 on his card, I explicityly say ok to that. Then when I bid 4NT he responds 5♣ with 2 Keycards. He didn't really know the convention.
So I ask "P, did I misinterpret your 5♣ response? I thought it showed 1 Keycard so I bailed out in 5♥" and leave it at that. No further comments from me. (he didn't realize the trump K counted as a Keycard)

Im not sure you are right here, not sure its right to treat this as a mistake made by him, this is something good for discussing, but i wouldnt consider this learning or teaching, just agreeing.
2 options
a. he doesnt play 5 aces, he play only 4 aces with answers 14 03 2
b. more likely today, he plays 5 aces but in the specific squence it wasnt clear that the K which you thought he considered as an ace should be considered as one.
Its a good example of how you must look at the problem from the other side of the table which is many times very hard for most bridge players (and drivers)