[awm]

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West deals, IMP scoring. How would you bid this pair of hands if:

(1) Opponents pass throughout?
(2) South overcalls 1♠ (if possible)

We played this hand in a team game (both tables playing 2/1) and both tables ended in 6♣, which certainly has play but is not the best spot. I'm sure that Sam and I could relay ourselves to the right place, but much more interested in how to get there in a natural system.

[aguahombre]

1C-1H (1S)
2C-2D...forcing, but not necessarily that good.
2N or 3N? We could bid 2NT here, but it doesn't matter; a ♦ rebid is real and slammish, so we are launched in diamonds.

[Cyberyeti]

We play weak no trump Acol:

1♣-1♥-(1♠)
1N(15-bad 19, spade stop)-2♣(asking)
2♦(15-16 not 4♠, not 3♥)-3♦(GF)
3N-4♦(at least 5-5 slam try)
4♠(4♥ would be nat so this is KC♦)-5♥
6♦-P

[Zelandakh]

In 1. the crux seems to be in which minor Responder continues after
1♣ - 1♥;
2♣ - 2♦;
3NT.

It is easy to see that 4♦ is going to work better here but I suspect many would prefer 4♣ single dummy. Then Opener surely cooperates with clubs as trumps. Of course, many play 2♦ as artificial here and such methods may also help. The easiest way to reach 6♦ is for West to open 1NT but that is also perhaps not to everyone's taste.

[rhm]

deleted

[rhm]

1♣-1♥-(1♠)
2♣-2♦
3NT-4♣*
4♥*-4♠*
5♣*-6NT

I would rebid 2♣, irrespective of the overcall

3NT shows more than a minimum (15-17)
4♣ key card ask (1430) in clubs, but keycard asker first suit (hearts) is a second key suit. I never believed in a minor needs to be agreed before you should be able to use minorwood.
4♥ (3 key cards)
4♠ ♣Q?
5♣ No.
6NT conclusion

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

Just playing natural, cue-bids and Keycard:

1♣-1♥
2♣-2♦
3NT-4NT
6NT

or

1♣-1♥
2♣-2♦
3NT-4♦
4♠*-5♣
5♥-6♦
* I think 4♥ would be to play.

or

1♣-1♥
2♣-2♦
3NT-4♣
4♥*-4NT
5♥-6NT
* Clearly this 4♥ is a cue-bid.

[Fluffy]

Why isn't anybody starting with 1♥ + 3♦ to show 5-5 reds GF+ values? it is the natural thing for me. It leads to a lot of decisions for both east and west, but slam will be probably reached, and someone wll correct 6♣ to 6♦ upon realicing ♣Q is missing

An alternative is to start with 1♣+3♣, I don't think this is the hand for it, but it is reasonable. After 3♣ and some form of blackwood it will be obvious to east that 6♦ is a great contract. Since ♣Q is missing, west must have either ♥K making it high, or ♠AKQ in wich case just being able to ruff one heart in dummy will bring 2♣ 5♦ 1♥ 3♠

[aguahombre]

Fluffy, on 2013-February-15, 08:00, said:

Why isn't anybody starting with 1♥ + 3♦ to show 5-5 reds GF+ values? it is the natural thing for me. It leads to a lot of decisions for both east and west, but slam will be probably reached, and someone wll correct 6♣ to 6♦ upon realicing ♣Q is missing

Dunno why nobody chose that. Sounds good.

I do know why we couldn't; 3♦ would mean something else.

[lalldonn]

In standard I play what fluffy suggested, that the second round jump is 5-5 GF, so I would start

1♣ 1♥ (1♠)
2♣ 3♦
3NT 4♣

and the auction could go a lot of ways from here but I'm sure we would get to slam and that it would not be in clubs.

In precision we would show similar hand types

2♣ 2NT (relay)
3♣ 3♥ (5H 5D GF)
3NT 4♣

I guess it requires responder pulling 3NT but that definitely seems like the right thing to do to me. Even a 5-2 heart fit if we have to reach it should be fine.

[gnasher]

I didn't start 1♣-1♥;2♣-3♦ because I think that the default meaning is a splinter. Maybe that's just an English thing, or just a 40-something and living in London thing.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

gnasher, on 2013-February-15, 11:37, said:

I didn't start 1♣-1♥;2♣-3♦ because I think that the default meaning is a splinter. Maybe that's just an English thing, or just a 40-something and living in London thing.

Yes, a Splinter for ♣ here .
2D! would be "artificial cheapest new suit bid forcing " ( similar to NMF over 1NT rebid ).

Thus, 3D! is a jump-over-a-forcing-bid ( in that suit ) = Splinter for the last bid suit .

[lalldonn]

gnasher, on 2013-February-15, 11:37, said:

I didn't start 1♣-1♥;2♣-3♦ because I think that the default meaning is a splinter. Maybe that's just an English thing, or just a 40-something and living in London thing.

I think splinter and invitational 5-5 are both more common than what I play. Splinter seems especially silly to me since that leaves us no natural diamond bids at all, but it is a common treatment.

[lalldonn]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-15, 11:52, said:

Yes, a Splinter for ♣ here .
2D! would be "artificial cheapest new suit bid forcing " ( similar to NMF over 1NT rebid ).

Thus, 3D! is a jump-over-a-forcing-bid ( in that suit ) = Splinter for the last bid suit .

I mean obviously this rule is insane if you don't say "forcing NATURAL bid in a suit". Is 1♦ p 1♠ p 1NT p 3♣ a splinter bid for spades just because 2♣ is a forcing bid?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

lalldonn, on 2013-February-15, 11:58, said:

I mean obviously this rule is insane if you don't say "forcing NATURAL bid in a suit". Is 1♦ p 1♠ p 1NT p 3♣ a splinter bid for spades just because 2♣ is a forcing bid?

The NMF case is different .
Opener does not have an "immediate" suit that was rebid:

1D - 1S
1NT - 3C jump is either weak or invitational ( depending on pre-agreed preference ) .

1D - 1S
1NT - 2C! ( NMF )
2H/2NT - 3C ( 5/5, GF )

"In NMF, all jumps are either weak or invitational; whereas GF auctions go thru NMF."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In your example of the "self-splinter" , Responder has to make the double-jump:
1D - 1S
1NT - 4C! = self-splinter for ♠.

BTW:
1D - 1S
1NT - 4D! is also a self-splinter for ♠ .

[fromageGB]

It wouldn't occur to me that 2♦ was forcing, nor 3♦ a splinter, so bidding naturally I follow lalldonn's sequence to 3NT, but then bid 4♦ rather than 4♣. I can always revert to clubs if nothing better happens. After that, maybe 4♠ as a cue agreeing diamonds

With my version of TWalsh, 1♦ to show the hearts, then 3♦ is slammish 5+ cards. 3♠ shows control and agrees diamonds, and then there are different routes that could be taken.

[Siegmund]

Apparently I'm the only one who is jumping to 3C as opener (yes, a minimum 3C for me, but I didn't seriously consider bidding only 2C.)

1C-1H
3C-3D
3NT-4D

and from here there are several paths to 6D or 6NT. 4S by opener, agreeing diamonds, sounds like a good start.

[Fluffy]

No tbidding 4♣ with ♣Kx on the suit where partner jump rebid looks terrible to me. This doesn't mean that one you realice ♣Q is missing you realice that the best contract must lie somewhere else.