[Stephen Tu]

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down 1 on the heart ruff. This sequence shouldn't exist IMO.

Apparently, raising to 3s shows "16+ total points", no upper limit, while raising to 4s shows 25+ total points. So 3s is 16-24? These aren't practical ranges. I suggest something like:
3s = 17-19 total points 4sp
4s = 20-23 total points (and partner barred), 4+ spade (maybe should loosen other distributional restrictions on takeout double since could have been planning rebid in NT/suit if partner didn't bid spades)
cue bid = either 18+, 3- spade, no heart stop, looking for partner to bid 4s/3nt if reasonable, or 24+ support hands that can't spl.

Probably other sequences involving raising after takeout double should be looked at also, I found this old thread:
http://www.bridgebas...poorly-defined/

[ArtK78]

I agree with you that a cue bid followed by a raise to game should be stronger than the direct raise to game.

Having said that, a direct raise to game on the hand that you have is a bit aggressive, as partner could have a zero count. That is why the system says that the direct raise to game shows 25+. Consider how poor your chances of making game would be opposite xxxx xx xxx xxxx, to say nothing of those hands where partner bids 2♠ on a 3 card suit as the least of evils.

[Stephen Tu]

Yes, one is going down if partner has a 4 cd yarb or worse. So what? It's impractical to cater to those hands and wait for game in hand to raise to game. One has to cater to the much more frequent cases where partner has a little something, and isn't completely broke. 6 counts are much more common than zero counts. A 17-24 pt range for 3s isn't playable. If partner's range is 0-9, you have to do something on your 17 counts. You can't do the same thing with your 20-21 counts as your 17; partner won't know that K fifth of spades and doubleton heart is a good game. Anything else you do with these 20 counts is getting you to game anyway, because you don't have enough sequences available below game.

If one were still at the one level, with 2 raises below game, and room to cue then raise, then I could agree with arranging things to stay lower with this hand. But not over 2S.

Preempts work, they reduce your accuracy. If the preempt was 3h, I'm raising a 3s response to game on even less than a 20 count!

[ArtK78]

When playing with GIB, one should be mindful of the ranges of one's calls. GIB takes them seriously.

[Stephen Tu]

ArtK78, on 2013-January-29, 15:21, said:

When playing with GIB, one should be mindful of the ranges of one's calls. GIB takes them seriously.

Duh. I am trying to get the ranges changed to something sensible, that's what this forum is for!

As it stands, I have to either raise to game and hope GIB doesn't have an 8/9 count and take me to 5, or raise to 3, and hope GIB doesn't have a 6 count and pass.

[pigpenz]

when in Rome do what GIB wants till someone corrects it, but I agree
its standards are a little too high at times when it comes to point count....but another thing to consider
is why did it not bid 3♠ or Lebensol to 3♠ whichever is the invitational bid?
Gib sort of F*****d you by not bidding correctly to start with IMHO....but the box does say 9pts or less.
so what are the ranges for the two above bids, anyone KNow?

[Stephen Tu]

pigpenz, on 2013-January-29, 19:51, said:

is why did it not bid 3♠ or Lebensol to 3♠ whichever is the invitational bid?
Gib sort of F*****d you by not bidding correctly to start with IMHO....but the box does say 9pts or less.
so what are the ranges for the two above bids, anyone KNow?

GIB probably wants "10+" total points to invite 3 spades. I personally think 2♠ with a flat 9 is OK. Move a heart to become a 5th spade then you have a normal inv 3s bid.

As for what 2nt followed by 3s shows, unfortunately I don't think there is a clear standard. I've seen good players recommend this as invitational with 4 (so direct 3s shows 5+ inv), I've also seen people play the delayed 3s as forcing. One could of course play the direct 3s as forcing and go through 2nt with inv, but I think the inv treatment for the direct bid is more common.

How GIB plays these two sequences I have no idea, I wouldn't be surprised if it is doing something odd.

[pigpenz]

Yes you would think that it is for forcing or invitational