[inquiry]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 1♣!   1♠!   Pass  3♠
 5♣    Pass  Pass  ? ?

1♣ was polish, and could be very strong or modestly weak.
1♠ was raptor, showing spades and a minor (maybe 4♠'s
3♠ was a betweener and problaby not right. Partner could be pretty weak.. in theory, 2NT would invite game in the major.. but they have hearts and I want to make it hard to find that fit.

The question becomes what to do over 5♣, also bear in mind the most hearts partner can have is 3 so it looks like they have missed their minimu 8-card heart fit.

Many here will remember this hand, as lots of our regulars played or kibitized the event this hand was played in..... but I doubt the bidding went anything like this at any table but mine. :-)

Ben

[flytoox]

I think pass is the only sensible call here. YOu have arealdy done better than other players sitting in same direction by driving them to 5C. There is no reason why we cannot win 2spade tricks and one diamond tricks. Plus, your 3S, i think, describes this hand almost perfectly.

[pclayton]

Ben, what is your agreement regarding direct / delayed entry with decent hands? Is the raptor call a wide range or just weak?

We can be cold for 5♦ opposite Axxx, xxx, AJxxxxx, void, (perfect minimum), make slam if he's got the A♥ or take a bath in the fountain of 1100 with xxxx, xx, Jxxxx, xx.

I'd probably bid 5♦ at IMPs, if the bid has a wide range. If its weak, I pass. At MPs, we have jostled them into an inferior 5♣, have no real security in 5♦, and have given ourselves the last guess.

By the way, what do you think about a 2♥ over 1♠ to show a good raise opposite a raptor 1♠ call?

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Jan 10 2005, 12:50 PM, said:

Ben, what is your agreement regarding direct / delayed entry with decent hands? Is the raptor call a wide range or just weak?

We can be cold for 5♦ opposite Axxx, xxx, AJxxxxx, void, (perfect minimum), make slam if he's got the A♥ or take a bath in the fountain of 1100 with xxxx, xx, Jxxxx, xx.

I'd probably bid 5♦ at IMPs, if the bid has a wide range. If its weak, I pass. At MPs, we have jostled them into an inferior 5♣, have no real security in 5♦, and have given ourselves the last guess.

By the way, what do you think about a 2♥ over 1♠ to show a good raise opposite a raptor 1♠ call?

Our raptor bid is wide ranging, the reason is the 1♣ polish can be anything (weak or strong). I like 2♥ as good raise to two, but I don't want to give opener an easy dble to show hearts... sometimes you can be too discriptive. We do use 2NT to show good stuff. The wide range bid here has both sides guessing. I felt my hand just short of inviting with 2NT... maybe that would have been the best call... (if I was sure partners minor was diamonds at the time I bid 3♠, I would have bid 2NT).

Ben

[Fluffy]

Pass, be consequent with yourself, you can't expect partner to understand a guy that makes a preemtive 3♠ bid and then bids something elses.

[Free]

Fluffy, on Jan 10 2005, 06:27 PM, said:

Pass, be consequent with yourself, you can't expect partner to understand a guy that makes a preemtive 3♠ bid and then bids something elses.

Agree

[HeartA]

At this high level, I tend to be more conservative than aggressive. Pass is my choice.

[inquiry]

Fluffy, on Jan 10 2005, 01:27 PM, said:

Pass, be consequent with yourself, you can't expect partner to understand a guy that makes a preemtive 3♠ bid and then bids something elses.

In general I agree with the sentiment... bid all you are going to bid at first, and then not bid again. But knowing your partner has at least 5 diamonds and at least 4 spades, giving both sides a double fit, might that not give you pause.

For example, if the bidding had gone, (1c)-1s-(p)-3S-(4H).... all pass to you, you don't know if the diamonds fit. Now bidding on would be total unjustified. But I wonder with the known double, double fit. Clearly they have at least 8 hearts and 9 clubs, and you have at least 8 spades and 9 diamonds. Might this not affect your evaluation?

[shanbari]

hi ben,

with double fit, i tend to bid on as 5D to prevent the double swing on both table.
5C could be easily made, if opener got 7 card club, while our 5D won't go down too much, and it could be made at some good day.


i have to admit, pass and 5c is very close to me.

shan

[Winstonm]

With the known double fit, equal vul, and no wasted cards I think I would have simply bid 4S the first time around - then I wouldn't feel the need to do anything other than pass after the 5C continuation.

[inquiry]

Winstonm, on Jan 10 2005, 04:22 PM, said:

With the known double fit, equal vul, and no wasted cards I think I would have simply bid 4S the first time around - then I wouldn't feel the need to do anything other than pass after the 5C continuation.

You didn't know you had a known double fit the first time. The 1club bid doesn't have to show clubs, and the 1♠ bid showed spades and Either Minor.

[the hog]

This is a problem when you play Raptor like bids over nebulous Club openings, and why I think this is not a good idea. I pass here. Opener should not be too strong for his 5C bid, but should have about 19-20 with 7 or so C. If the 1S bidder has a "real raptor" hand, where 1S can show a 4 card suit, it is clear that 5D is going to be too costly - 5C bidder will have a singleton or void. (incidentally I would not contemplate a 5S bid in my dreams - if you are going to bid on, it must be in Ds.

We have upped the ante already. I pass.

[firechief]

Hey, hey...I don't agree w/justin. What's up with that? I'm bidding 5 diamonds. My hand is all offense after they confirm partner's got diamonds. This is a huge hand for partner.
Joel

[Free]

firechief, on Jan 11 2005, 01:21 AM, said:

Hey, hey...I don't agree w/justin. What's up with that? I'm bidding 5 diamonds. My hand is all offense after they confirm partner's got diamonds. This is a huge hand for partner.
Joel

Maybe it's sooo huge that opps will bid and make 6♣ if you show them you have a double fit... Btw, your K's and Q won't be worth much in defense now imo.

[Winstonm]

[QUOTE] You didn't know you had a known double fit the first time.

No? Did you listen to the bidding? Given that pard's upper range for this bid is about 13 and I have 9, that leaves LHO with 13-18 giving RHO 0-5 for his pass.

LHO opened 1C. Pard showed a 4/5 pattern with 4Spades, and it can't be a real big hand. RHO invariably holds some hearts, yet he didn't make a 1-level negative double, hence 0-5 HCP. That leaves LHO with basically four types of hands: 1) A big club hand worth a jump rebid to 3C.(long clubs) 2) A reverse, holding 4 hearts and 5 clubs (long clubs) and 3) a balanced 12-14 that he would rebid 1NT(with 15-17 he would open 1nt) or and 18-19 point hand that would rebid 2NT. Only a 3433 pattern by LHO would give partner much of a chance for holding clubs. Even then he could still hold diamonds. Note, that if partner has 5 clubs as you suggest he may have, then LHO is likely to be 3433 or 4423, leaving RHO with 4-5 hearts. More likely shape if LHO has a 2NT rebid is 2434 or 2335; with either of these RHO will have hearts, yet did not bid.

Notice that on the vast majority of these holdings, the double fit in diamonds and spades is virtually guaranteed; otherwise, it is strongly implied; it would be incredibly unluck to find partner with the worst holding possible for us, 4315.

Nothing in life or bridge is guaranteed; the winner play the percentages; I go with the percentages and apply maximum pressure to my opponents by bidding 4S.

[HeartA]

[quote name='Winstonm' date='Jan 10 2005, 07:32 PM'] [QUOTE] You didn't know you had a known double fit the first time.

No? Did you listen to the bidding? Given that pard's upper range for this bid is about 13 and I have 9, that leaves LHO with 13-18 giving RHO 0-5 for his pass.

LHO opened 1C. Pard showed a 4/5 pattern with 4Spades, and it can't be a real big hand. RHO invariably holds some hearts, yet he didn't make a 1-level negative double, hence 0-5 HCP. That leaves LHO with basically four types of hands: 1) A big club hand worth a jump rebid to 3C.(long clubs) 2) A reverse, holding 4 hearts and 5 clubs (long clubs) and 3) a balanced 12-14 that he would rebid 1NT(with 15-17 he would open 1nt) or and 18-19 point hand that would rebid 2NT. Only a 3433 pattern by LHO would give partner much of a chance for holding clubs. Even then he could still hold diamonds. Note, that if partner has 5 clubs as you suggest he may have, then LHO is likely to be 3433 or 4423, leaving RHO with 4-5 hearts. More likely shape if LHO has a 2NT rebid is 2434 or 2335; with either of these RHO will have hearts, yet did not bid.

Notice that on the vast majority of these holdings, the double fit in diamonds and spades is virtually guaranteed; otherwise, it is strongly implied; it would be incredibly unluck to find partner with the worst holding possible for us, 4315.

Nothing in life or bridge is guaranteed; the winner play the percentages; I go with the percentages and apply maximum pressure to my opponents by bidding 4S. [/quote]
Winstonm,
You didn't read the original post carefully. Ben said that "1C was polish". East-West was not playing 2/1 or sayc or the like.

[inquiry]

Ok...

The best bid on the actual hand was pass (as sooooo many of you bid). Turns out partner probobably has a hammer of 5♣, as he has !SA, !DA, and !CK. Five clubs is donw one, five of either of your suits is down two. Hearts made four, five and six (but with good defense should make only 4). Of course, you can't imagine your partner has three tricks (well, he had only two as declearer has a spade void, but you will get 2!D and a !C).

The five club bidder held...

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My thoughts was not to bid 5♦ becuase that might tell them that they have a doble fit (we know about our double fit, htey are still in the dark). So I would never bid 5♦. So for me, the option was a pass happy they missed 4♥, and 5♠ to take advantage of the our secret double fit.

Ben

[inquiry]

[quote name='Winstonm' date='Jan 10 2005, 08:32 PM'] [QUOTE] You didn't know you had a known double fit the first time.

No? Did you listen to the bidding? Given that pard's upper range for this bid is about 13 and I have 9, that leaves LHO with 13-18 giving RHO 0-5 for his pass.

LHO opened 1C. Pard showed a 4/5 pattern with 4Spades, and it can't be a real big hand. RHO invariably holds some hearts, yet he didn't make a 1-level negative double, hence 0-5 HCP. That leaves LHO with basically four types of hands: 1) A big club hand worth a jump rebid to 3C.(long clubs) 2) A reverse, holding 4 hearts and 5 clubs (long clubs) and 3) a balanced 12-14 that he would rebid 1NT(with 15-17 he would open 1nt) or and 18-19 point hand that would rebid 2NT. Only a 3433 pattern by LHO would give partner much of a chance for holding clubs. Even then he could still hold diamonds. Note, that if partner has 5 clubs as you suggest he may have, then LHO is likely to be 3433 or 4423, leaving RHO with 4-5 hearts. More likely shape if LHO has a 2NT rebid is 2434 or 2335; with either of these RHO will have hearts, yet did not bid.

Notice that on the vast majority of these holdings, the double fit in diamonds and spades is virtually guaranteed; otherwise, it is strongly implied; it would be incredibly unluck to find partner with the worst holding possible for us, 4315.

Nothing in life or bridge is guaranteed; the winner play the percentages; I go with the percentages and apply maximum pressure to my opponents by bidding 4S. [/quote]
Hi.. 1[cl] was artificial, and might have a VOID in clubs, and seven or eight hearts. Or, a bunch of hearts and diamodns. There is no guarantee that partner has diamonds, and in fact, experience shows that partner has clubs jsut less than /2 the time on this auciton, and when I have diamond legnth, it increases the chances his minor is clubs.

I will admit I considered 4[sp], but bidding like htat with such a hand will discourage partner from bidding on many hands that he does so fairly light. By the way, the par contract on this hand is 4!Sx by us, which is down one.

Ben

[Winstonm]

My apologies. You are right in that I did not see that 1C was artificial. Thanks for pointing this out. Certainly changes the auction.

I think now that I will bid 2NT if this asks for the minor, as I want to find out if we have a double fit. Opener will bid 3C presumably, and now partner bids 3D? If so, I'm back to my original position and bid 4S.

Ciao.

WinstonM