[flytoox]

inquiry, on Dec 13 2004, 03:30 PM, said:

mila85, on Dec 13 2004, 09:15 AM, said:

I must bid spades first because after
1d-2c
2h-2s is 4th suit and I am unable to show my 5 spades.

I think that 3c should be forcing.

What about 2nt now? It's game invit in my system.

Hmmmm..

Any system that forces you to respond 1♠ with this hand must be seriously flawed. The problem with 2♣ followed by 2♠ is not that 2♠ is "fourth suit" forcing, but that is shows a much better hand (reverse). For me, 2♣ and if partner rebids 2♦ I then bid 3♣. Even if partner bids 2♥ over 2♣ I rebid 3♣.

Ben

Ben, so u plan to hide ur spade suit? Isnt it more important to look for major fit first?

[joker_gib]

Your partner opens and you have a 4 losers hand and some want to pass !

Incredible !

This is a clear 2♣ bid and then go for ♠.

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Dec 13 2004, 11:56 AM, said:

Ben, so u plan to hide ur spade suit? Isnt it more important to look for major fit first?

Do I plan to hide my spade suit? WEll if partner can only scrape together a 2♦ call, yes, I will hide my spade suit. If partner reverses to 2♥, I will pull it out, as now it is no longer a true reverse in my mind. Somehow, the feature of this hand is the excellent seven card suit. HEre the original poster wanted to bail without bidding that suit. And the poster I quoted was so worried about losing spades through a fourth suit forcing auction, he gave up entirely on clubs (even planning maybe a 2NT rebid with the 7-5 hand never showing clubs.

I maybe odd, but I like bidding my long, strong suits before bidding my short weak ones, and I don't like rebidding NT naturally with 7-5 hands wihtout bidding my suits.

Ben

[Free]

After 1♦-2♣;2♥ you can bid 3♠ as natural...

This is an immediate 2♣ bid imo

[whereagles]

Tricky hand. Bidding

1D 2C
2D 3C

is probably the best, but, having bid 1S initially, I would be careful now. The hand is not as hot as at seems, and I would bid it like:

1D 1S
2D 2S

One could try a 3C bid, hoping to induce pard into a delayed spade raise, but if that fails there's no telling where we'll end and therefore a simple 2S is perhaps best. There is no bid to show this hand, nor is there any way to extract more info from pard without getting too high.

[Fluffy]

Playing in ♠ with such holding is a suicide unless partner has 4 card support, you will get sortened and will never enjoy your clubs.

[Fluffy]

LH2650, on Dec 13 2004, 02:25 PM, said:

I voted for an invitational action, but then ran a simulation and concluded that some game is more than 70% to make. 4 spades is the most likely (55%), followed by 5 clubs (50%), 3 notrump (30%), and 5 diamonds (3%). (Some hands make more than 1 game.) Since there are multiple possibilities that must be considered, it seems necessary to attempt to describe your hand to partner, starting with 2 clubs, and let him make the final decision.

Did you also count the times you were going at least 3 downs to 3NT, 4♠ or 5♦?

[whereagles]

Fluffy, on Dec 14 2004, 01:14 AM, said:

Playing in ♠ with such holding is a suicide unless partner has 4 card support, you will get sortened and will never enjoy your clubs.

Agree, but... when the bidding makes it likely partner has something like

Qx
KJxx
AQxxxx
x

do you really prefer to bid 3C and end up in 5?

1D 1S
2D 3C
3N ...4C? 5C?

In any case, after the 3C bid you're not going to stop short of a game that rates not to make. Better try your luck in 2S, which has a better chance to make than 5C.

[Fluffy]

Nuno, you are following my point, my bidding would be:

1♦-1NT
2♦-3♣
pass

[whereagles]

Yeah.. well, I prefer to bid 2C instead of 1S. The point is if one decides to bid 1S and hears 2D, a quiet 2S is a better bid than 3C.

Now, bidding 1NT is not my cup of tea.

[han]

Time to confess for me. I bid 1S, and then 2S, hiding my AK10xxxx forever. I realize that I have lost some potential partners with this confession.

After 2D it seemed likely that partner had some hearts (Why are the opponents not bidding with close to half the deck and a heart fit?), so I remembered the old rule "stop as soon as possible with a misfit". Passing 2D is a bit too much for me.

My bid struck gold at the table, partner had something like Qx KQJx AJxxxx x, and clubs split badly. I think that 2S making was the only positive score. A problem for us is that we play 2C as gameforcing. I could bid 3C immediately since that would show an invitational hand, but it is hard to estimate the potential of this hand, but this has two drawbacks 1) it buries the spade suit, 2) your hand is great if partner has some kind of fit for you.

I was wondering if I was brilliant or just lucky. Reading your post got my feet back on the ground.

[LH2650]

Hannie, on Dec 14 2004, 05:15 PM, said:

I was wondering if I was brilliant or just lucky. Reading your post got my feet back on the ground.

Assuming partner never raises with 3 spades and 6 diamonds, and (as many partners would) offer no sympathy or understanding when a 2 club bid doesn't work out, you were brilliant. In 200 simulated hands, you converted a plus to a minus on 25 of them by bidding 2 spades. However, 2 spades makes 68% of the time, while 2 diamonds is only 40%. Also, you got 55 spade game opportunities, 8 slam opportunities, and 1 grand slam opportunity!

[mila85]

inquiry, on Dec 13 2004, 10:30 AM, said:

mila85, on Dec 13 2004, 09:15 AM, said:

I must bid spades first because after
1d-2c
2h-2s is 4th suit and I am unable to show my 5 spades.

I think that 3c should be forcing.

What about 2nt now? It's game invit in my system.

Hmmmm..

Any system that forces you to respond 1♠ with this hand must be seriously flawed. The problem with 2♣ followed by 2♠ is not that 2♠ is "fourth suit" forcing, but that is shows a much better hand (reverse). For me, 2♣ and if partner rebids 2♦ I then bid 3♣. Even if partner bids 2♥ over 2♣ I rebid 3♣.

Ben

I play walsh responces. I will respond 1s with 4 spades and 7 clubs too (if I don't have good GF hand). Maybe it's not good on this hand but has other advatages.

I think, it's not posissible to show both my suits and stop in 2s or 3c in most of the systems. If partner is strong I have much more bidding space to find the best contract (But I must start with spades - I can't show it later because of my walsh responces.)
The problem is to find the best partscore if partner is weak.

The question was what do you bid over 2d.
I don't know if I would bid 2nt. I was thinking about 2 spades and 2nt (3nt?). I wrote about 2nt in my post because I wanted to hear comments.
2s are normal (pass - can play on 5-0 fit, 2h no comment, 2nt show (semi)balanced distribution, 3c is forcing)

If I bid spades first I will play 2s or 2nt (if partner has minimal hand).
If I bid clubs first I will play 3c.
My clubs are much better than my spades but it doesn't mean that 3c are better contact than 2s.

[beatrix45]

Geez. Playing 2/1 you have to bid one spade, and then you have to get off the train at the next stop. Using SAYC the case for 2C on the first round is pretty good, but not altogether clear-cut. Do you pass over 1D-P-2C-P-2D-P-??? or bid 2S or even 3C?

As far as your question goes, I don't think 'brilliant' is quite the right adjective here.

[firechief]

In response to Fluffy, you can't respond 1nt w/this hand. You're asking for partner to pass w/something like KQxx Axxx Kxxx Q, and you're cold for 6 spades/6 clubs. I think bidding 2c right away, even if it is game forcing, is the correct call. I don't mind getting to 5 clubs or 4 spades, even when it's wrong because the other option is getting to a partscore a fair amount of the time when game/slam is on. Who's to say that 2 diamonds is going to play any better than 5 clubs? My plan is clubs first then spades twice.
Joel

[Winstonm]

This is a very good problem. My hand has 6 losers, 1 extra in spades because it is 5 card length w/o top honor card. Unbalanced, unwieldy hands usually play better in the long suit. As it looks like I will have to be taking ruffs in this hand, I don't want to play even a 5/3 spade fit. I will treat the spade suit as if it were a 4-bagger.

I can't get in too much trouble bidding 2C and following with 3C; and this leaves me well placed if partner bids 3C or reverses into spades or bid 2nt or even rebids 2D as in the hand given. Hardest would be if he reversed into 2H - then I think again I would forget the spades as partner is unlikely to hold even 3 of them and just quietly rebid the clubs.