[han]

Playing live bridge with a beginner yesterday, I opened 1NT (15-17), my partner bid 2NT (natural) and I accepted with AKQ 10xx xxx AKJx. Partner had something like xxx KJxx Axx 10xx. I was unlucky to go down 2, but we should not have been there. Apparently my partner was taught to invite with 8-counts.

I believe a flat, uneventful 8-count is not an invite, but I've seen even advanced players make invites with hands like this.

Do you agree that this hand is not good enough? How would you explain to a beginner with which hands to invite?

[pclayton]

Pass with flat 8's and even some ugly 9's. If you do it in tempo, sometimes you'll get a balance from lefty - Yum!

[paulg]

It does depend on the scoring - caution at matchpoints and ambition when vulnerable at IMPs.

At IMPs I generally want to be in 24-point 3NT contracts, so will be inviting with most 8 counts. As well as the IMP scale distorting the percentages so that poor games should be bid declarer skills are much higher than defensive skills so many bad contracts make.

At matchpoints, I raise the bar a little since I do not want to be in bad games. If I make an extra trick in 1NT then I'll get a good score, I do not need to bid a bad game to do that. So I'd generally need 9 points to invite.

In terms of using judgement on good or bad hands, it's the usual things:

• honours in long suits [good]
  
• doubleton honours [bad]
  
• good 5-card suit [good]
  
• aces [good]
  
• jacks [bad]

At IMPs I would have invited with your example hand (and accepted it too), but passed at matchpoints. One positive for inviting at IMPs is that if there is a 4-4 heart fit then all my points will be working.

cheers

Paul

[luke warm]

it's hard to imagine not ending up in 3nt... it'd go 1c/1h(3 controls)/1nt/2c/2d/3nt probably... bad luck you went down, it happens... i think those hands make 3nt more often than not, can't be sure tho

[Flame]

First the way to explain is to take one point off a 4333 shape so the hand is 7 hcp and not worth invite.
Second it should be noted that many many 3nts including at the top level but more at lower levels are made due to mistakes and less the best diffence, 3nt is the contract which the opponents make more mistakes against then any other game. I think if 3nt should be bid without partly depending on opponents mistakes then 27 hcp would have been required, but this mistake factor is intigrated into the bidding systems.So my point is dont feel bad about getting into an hopeless 3nt, or going down with a good diffence, this is the price you pay for those 3nt that will make due to bad diffence.

[pclayton]

Partner knows the premium of vul games at IMPs too. If we are both pushing, then we rate to get to a lot of hopeless 8 + 15 3N's. I'll find just about any excuse to accept a game try. Many needless IMPs have been thrown away with -200's and -300's when the other table stopped in ONE.

Its a matter of philosophy, but I prefer the partner with the last decision to be agressive. Accordingly, I prefer that my invites be sound. I'll make a move with an 8 count and a decent 5 card suit, or a 4432 with a 4 card major.

[flytoox]

I would say you shold decline pd's invitation. AKQ in one suit without small cards is never good.

[Free]

In the long run it pays off to play 3NT games with 24 or more HCP. So invite with decent 8-pointers, with all 9-pointers, and have your few bad hands from time to time. Bridge isn't an exact science...

[joker_gib]

I always invite with 8 and as Free says : bridge is not an exact science !

[han]

I agree that my hand is not a good 17 count. But as one should invite somewhat conservatively, and accept aggressively (even at IMPs), there is no doubt in my mind that almost any 17-count should accept, and most 16-counts too.

We were playing matchpoints, but I think that the hand in question is not worth an invite even at IMPs.

[pclayton]

Part in parcel of my 'conservative invite' philosophy is that some vul 17's should not be opened with 1N.

I'll never do it with a decent 5 card suit; major or minor (even NV). I'll also add in some well-structured 4432's too: AJTx, Kxx, AQTx, Kx.

[Flame]

A i said before i usually take one point off for 4333 shape and will invite with 9-10 bid game with 11, but this hand has K and A which are good points, the K and J are in the same suit which is good, the KJ are in the long suit which is good, and i have a 10. If the rest looks like 234 234 234 i would pass but if i have a 8 here and a 9 there i would bid 2nt. Anyway either pass or 2nt is not a big mistake and can turn out successully.

[luke warm]

pclayton, on Dec 10 2004, 09:46 PM, said:

Part in parcel of my 'conservative invite' philosophy is that some vul 17's should not be opened with 1N.

I'll never do it with a decent 5 card suit; major or minor (even NV). I'll also add in some well-structured 4432's too: AJTx, Kxx, AQTx, Kx.

the "problem" with this hand is the impossibility of stopping short of 3nt, playing strong club... the 1h response, showing 3 controls, almost (almost!!) guarantees a game force, and after opener rebids 1nt responder's hand looks pretty good

3nt might not make this time, but i think those 2 hands want to be in 3nt every chance they get

[awm]

I have learned to be very conservative with 4333 patterns. I wouldn't have invited here. As a general rule I think inviting on 8-counts at IMP scoring is okay, and would invite with many 4432 8-counts and virtually all 5332 8-counts. On the actual hand, note that Hannie's hand is pretty good (17 hcp is dead max, and both tens are opposite strong honor holdings in the opposite hand). Give Hannie for example:

AKxx xxx KQxx Ax

I think a lot of us would accept the invite with a 4432 16-count and no jacks (if we reject on virtually all 16s, then we will play way too many 2NT contracts and need to tone down the invites). But this hand offers very little play for game. It's easy to construct similar hands to this one, and seems relatively hard to construct hands where game is much better than 50% (maybe Kxx AQx KQxxx Kx? but I wouldn't even open 1NT on this hand as it's too good and you're still down on best defense if the black aces are split, not that you will likely get best defense).

[han]

How on earth did this thread get up here? It's from 2004, I just learned how to take a finesse that year! (only mastered the finesse in February this year though)