[ahydra]

So last night it was the Eccles Cup - some kind of weird teamy matchpointy thing. My partner and I managed 60% and team-mates put in respectable games as well, but that was only enough for joint fourth (I guess that's mostly due to throwing together a team at the last minute).

Wonder if we can get some help with these two boards. My partner would like to know how to bid this grand:

---

I was North, he was South. Probably I should bid 4C rather than 3H? Partner felt he couldn't bid the grand due to losers in diamonds and hearts. I said that 6D is available to ask for 3rd round control but even then partner said he would be worried about the lack of the HK. So is there a way partner can find out that I have enough discards for him?

For something completely different (except it still involves spades), I would like to know how to find this sac:

---

Looking at it now I notice my hand is pretty good for a NV weak 2 (due to 6-4 shape), but can I really bid 4S? And partner has a very defensive hand so didn't fancy 4S over 4H. 4H makes +1 for like 20% of the matchpoints our way - 4SX is down only one unless the defence find a diamond ruff. So who needs to take the push?

Thanks,

ahydra

[ArtK78]

The problem with the first auction is that the wrong hand took control of the auction. After the opening bid, responder should take control of the auction. I don't know what your 2NT bid means other than it is a game forcing raise, but clearly it did not handle the auction properly. You would have had a better chance of getting to the grand playing simple Jacoby 2NT, as opener would show his club singleton. After that, RKCB will get you to the grand on the assumption that opener does not have 4 hearts.

The second hand is just unlucky. Opener should never sacrifice unilaterally, and the 3♠ bid is not an invitation to sacrifice. Responder has a lot of defense, so he is not interested in sacrificing. If 4♥ makes and 4♠ would have been a good sacrifice, that is just unlucky.

The only way I see you getting to 4♠ is if you opened 3♠, which is not out of the question, but is very aggressive. South might bid 4♠ hoping that it prompts a 5 level action by the opps, which he should be able to beat, or that opener has short hearts which might give 4♠ some play.

I suspect that the main reason for your poor score in 4♥ is that many might be playing the hand in part score or may have sold out to 3♠. If they sold out to 3♠, down one in 4♠x will not help you.

[wyman]

On the first, south, who took control, needs to tell north that their side has all the keycards. Then North can bid the grand himself. AKQ and the ace of hearts take care of the nondiamond cards in souths hand. If trumps are 2-1, you'll score 2 red aces, cakq, and 8 trump. If they are 3-0, you'll still have chances, like a red K or a high cross ruff.

[ahydra]

ArtK78, on 2012-December-01, 14:30, said:

The problem with the first auction is that the wrong hand took control of the auction. After the opening bid, responder should take control of the auction. I don't know what your 2NT bid means other than it is a game forcing raise, but clearly it did not handle the auction properly. You would have had a better chance of getting to the grand playing simple Jacoby 2NT, as opener would show his club singleton. After that, RKCB will get you to the grand on the assumption that opener does not have 4 hearts.

The second hand is just unlucky. Opener should never sacrifice unilaterally, and the 3♠ bid is not an invitation to sacrifice. Responder has a lot of defense, so he is not interested in sacrificing. If 4♥ makes and 4♠ would have been a good sacrifice, that is just unlucky.

The only way I see you getting to 4♠ is if you opened 3♠, which is not out of the question, but is very aggressive. South might bid 4♠ hoping that it prompts a 5 level action by the opps, which he should be able to beat, or that opener has short hearts which might give 4♠ some play.

I suspect that the main reason for your poor score in 4♥ is that many might be playing the hand in part score or may have sold out to 3♠. If they sold out to 3♠, down one in 4♠x will not help you.

We play 2NT = GF spade raise, after which you can SPL (4x) or nat new suit (3x). The idea being that double fits allow finding of thin slams. I was trying to take control by fiddling around until partner cuebid hearts, but partner got in there first with RKC. With no Exclusion I didn't fancy the idea of RKC with my void in partner's second suit.

Here's the full second hand.

---

140 (3S by N, tick): 2
-50 (4S by N, -1): 2
-100 (4SX by N, -1): 1
-170 (3H by E, +1): 1
-400 (5C by E, tick): 1
-420 (4H by E, tick): 5
Nobody managed 4H+1 (theoretically possible, but it looks like you have to play clubs double-dummy).

ahydra

[blackshoe]

ahydra, on 2012-December-01, 16:20, said:

We play 2NT = GF spade raise, after which you can SPL (4x) or nat new suit (3x). The idea being that double fits allow finding of thin slams. I was trying to take control by fiddling around until partner cuebid hearts, but partner got in there first with RKC. With no Exclusion I didn't fancy the idea of RKC with my void in partner's second suit.

Seems to me it should be good to agree that once one partner has taken control (2NT here), the other cannot seize control (by bidding RKC). But you do need clear agreements as to the meaning of followups to 2NT (not just the first rebid thereafter).

[phil_20686]

On the first hand, north can just bid exclusion over 3D pretty much. If he knows north has the ace of hearts and 5S4D, then you can pretty much always just ruff four diamonds. Of course, we can construct layouts where the cross ruff fails, but south could have pretty much anything extra and that would be enough. KJTxx spades for example, makes grand essentially cold whenever three rounds of clubs stand up.

On board two, north should open 3S. 6-4 shape, first in NV, decent suit.

Apart from that, if anyone is going to sac, it should be south. He knows north has short hearts after the 4H bid, something like AKxxxx x xxx xxx, is hardly unlikely, and you might easily take 9 spade tricks. Ten needs quite a bit of luck, but surely one of the aces are onside.

On a really good day, partner will be void in hearts. KQT9xx - Jxxx xxx, and you just have to guess the clubs to make maybe. Still, for me, north has a three spade bid, which means that south will infer that north cannot be 6043 ever basically.

Saccing looks ridiculous if partner has opened Kxxxxx x xxx Axx, and you are just beating 4H on any lead.

[Cyberyeti]

1. The way we bid:

1♠-4♦(exclusion, but 4♠=bad)-5♦(2+Q, partner has 4+ spades so I'll show Q)-6♣(all keycards+K♣)-7♠

I think if you play the 2N raise, you should discuss exactly what 4♦ is.

1♠-2N-3♦(nat non minimum)-4♣(cue, no ♥ control)-4♦(♦ and ♥ controls)-4N(keycard)-5♣(0/3)- 5♠(signoff opposite 0)- 6♦(3+K♦)-7♠

is also possible, you know about ♠Kxxxx, ♥A, ♦AKxx with 3 cards to come which will go under ♣AKQ so can bid the grand with confidence.

2.

I'd bid 4♠ as N, but that's the sort of thing I do. Wondering if the 3♠= was 3♠-P-P-P.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

ahydra, on 2012-December-01, 13:20, said:

---

I was North, he was South. Probably I should bid 4C rather than 3H? Partner felt he couldn't bid the grand due to losers in diamonds and hearts.

I wish I had a good auction for this one, but I don't.

I'm receptive to the idea that a "new suit" after 2NT! would show a "good" side suit instead of shortness as in regular Jacoby.
But I would rather it also indicate "shortness somewhere else " as well:

S - N
1S - 2NT!
3D! - 3S ( no ♥-Ctrl )
4C!( ♣-shortness, implying ♥-Ctrl ) - 4NT
5C ( 0/3 ) - 7S

[PhilKing]

FWIW I think assuming partner has a heart control is very bad.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2012-December-02, 11:54, said:

FWIW I think assuming partner has a heart control is very bad.

If in his world 3♠ categorically denies a heart control, 4♣ must show one.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-December-02, 12:10, said:

If in his world 3♠ categorically denies a heart control, 4♣ must show one.

Was referring to Phil_20686 auction. We can be off three losers in his auction when partner shows one key card, or be on a finesse for grand.

I can see that in you voluntary exclusion sequence, partner is bidding 4♠ with heart losers.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2012-December-02, 12:21, said:

Was referring to Phil_20686 auction. We can be off three losers in his auction when partner shows one key card, or be on a finesse for grand.

I can see that in you voluntary exclusion sequence, partner is bidding 4♠ with heart losers.

Ah, as yours was the post following two4's you were referring to his.

[rmnka447]

On the first hand, I also like two4's 3 ♠ call denying a ♥ control.

In this auction, you are already in the slam exploration zone with one hand showing a game forcing raise and the other showing a second suit with extras. So any further new suit bids by responder ought to show controls. 3 ♥ as suit bid really doesn't do much good as there's virtually no room to bid out your hand pattern. So you're better off using other suit bids to show controls.

As an adjunct to showing controls, available trump suit and NT bids can be used as waitng bids to allow more efficient use of the available control bidding space. This is especially important when using the more in vogue fashion of bidding any control (1st or 2nd round) control.

The important thing is to have some understanding of what controls are implied or denied by making the waiting bid. That's a matter for partnership understanding as it can be handled several ways.

Here, two4 says 3 ♠ shows slam interest and denies a ♥ control. That's fine. It does have one advantage in that it lets opener cheaply show or deny another control. Consider if opener had held ♣ xx, he might bid 3 NT to deny a ♣ control. That still allows responder room to bid 4 ♣ to show one below game.

If 3 ♠ denies a ♥ control, then 4 ♣ should show both a ♣ control and a ♥ control. Without a ♥ control, opener knows there must be at least 2 losers and signs off in game.

After 4 ♣ by opener, I'd be more inclined to simply show the ♦ control by bidding 4 ♦. (If responder really had ♦s, he could have immediately bid 4 ♦ over 3 ♦ to reveal the double fit.) This greatly simplifies matters for opener. After 4 NT reveals all keycards are held, opener now has enough information to ask about the ♣ K with 5 NT.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-December-02, 08:58, said:

I wish I had a good auction for this one, but I don't.

You forgot my mini/maxi-splinter gadget already?

1♠ - 2NT = mini-splinter or a hand too strong for a normal splinter
3♣ (asks) - 3NT = maxi-splinter with void
4♣ (asks) - 4♦ = diamond void

Now South can simply ask for key cards followed by kings.

On the OP auction, it is difficult to know whether 4♣ would be better than 3♥ without undertsnading what 3♥ means. It seems pretty clear that North either has to find some way to let on to having a diamond void or simply to take control though. Methods where North can ask about hearts and follow this with XRKCB would obviously work too.

The second hand is one of those things. I played an almost identical deal last night. Once you make the decision to open 2♠ and East gets involved you are destined for -420. Opening 3♠ is the alternative that gets you to 4♠ - certainly not to everyone's taste but would work well here.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2012-December-04, 06:44, said:

You forgot my mini/maxi-splinter gadget already?

Overlooked but not forgotten.

You see, for the past week I've been intrigued with formulating a new "Jacoby" system based on ahydra's " 3-new suit bid ( after 2NT! ) = a (good) 2nd suit ( as few a 4 cards) " ... with my added requirement of shortness elsewhere... to be revealed in the next rebid .

But maybe I should limit that to a "balanced" Responder ( no shortness of his own ) .

[ArtK78]

Zelandakh, on 2012-December-04, 06:44, said:

You forgot my mini/maxi-splinter gadget already?

I play a mini/midi/maxi splinter "gadget," but I would never think to use it on this hand.

For one thing, I dislike making splinter bids on voids, as partner may misevaluate his Ace or - at the other end of the spectrum - his xxxx in the splinter suit.

But more important to me is that this hand - 5-5-0-3 with very weak hearts - looks to me like a hand that should try to obtain information from opener rather than give information to opener. I try to reserve the splinter bids (whatever strength) to more traditional shapes - 4441, 5431, and so on.

If I can find that partner has shortness in hearts, my hand is a monster. But opposite a hand without heart shortness I will need to find him with considerable heart strength to consider bidding a slam.

[Zelandakh]

ArtK78, on 2012-December-04, 11:26, said:

I play a mini/midi/maxi splinter "gadget," but I would never think to use it on this hand.

For one thing, I dislike making splinter bids on voids, as partner may misevaluate his Ace or - at the other end of the spectrum - his xxxx in the splinter suit.

I would be inclined to agree with you if the gadget you are using does not differentiate between singletons and voids but that is not the case with mine. Here the hands are so good that I think any sequence where either North can show the diamond void or South can show the heart control before their partner asks for key cards should get the job done.

Perhaps more interesting would be to alter the South hand slightly, for example by changing a diamond to a heart. Now, if South is asking, we need to find the ♣Q in addition to the king and it becomes much harder outside of a DD club SSA. That hand is definitely simpler if North takes control and finds out about the club singleton, heart control and 3 key cards. But not everyone can take this route and still use XRKCB, so if we change the South hand again so that the ♦A is not held it is also a problem.

In other words, it depends on the type of hand that South holds as to which approach will work best, as well as the methods available. That was why I wrote:

Zelandakh, on 2012-December-04, 06:44, said:

Methods where North can ask about hearts and follow this with XRKCB would obviously work too.

in the first post. If this is available to you then it is surely a good approach on almost all hands.

[losercover]

ahydra, on 2012-December-01, 16:20, said:

We play 2NT = GF spade raise, after which you can SPL (4x) or nat new suit (3x). The idea being that double fits allow finding of thin slams. I was trying to take control by fiddling around until partner cuebid hearts, but partner got in there first with RKC. With no Exclusion I didn't fancy the idea of RKC with my void in partner's second suit.

Here's the full second hand.

---

140 (3S by N, tick): 2
-50 (4S by N, -1): 2
-100 (4SX by N, -1): 1
-170 (3H by E, +1): 1
-400 (5C by E, tick): 1
-420 (4H by E, tick): 5
Nobody managed 4H+1 (theoretically possible, but it looks like you have to play clubs double-dummy).

ahydra

We play 2nt as a maxi raise 5+ cover cards. South has a 5 loser hand so the potential is 7S. I would cue bid clubs after 2nt and assuming the opponents didn't interfere, cue bid enough controls to bid 7.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

ahydra, on 2012-December-01, 13:20, said:

My partner would like to know how to bid this grand:

---

I've come up with something a little different thant my post # 8 for this one :

It involves Opener as the only one "giving" information after Responder's Jac2NT.
It uses ahydra's 3-new suit = a "good" 4+ card suit ( rather than 4-new suit jump as in regular Jacoby ).
"Good" means at least one of the top 2 honors. Next, Responder "asks" for Opener's shortness, and in some cases can show it along with a Ctrl cue in the 4th suit ( or lack of it ):

- - ...................... 1S
Jac2NT .............. 3D!
3H ( waiting )...... ??
............................ 3S! = Ht shortness
............................ 3NT! = Cl shortness but NO Ht Ctrl and NO other Diam Ctrl (almost impossible)
............................ 4C! = Cl shortness And Ht Ctrl
............................ 4D! = Cl shortness and 2nd Diam Ctrl but NO Ht Ctrl
.................. after:
......................... 4C!
5D! ( Voidwood) .. 6C ( 4th step = 2 + ♠Q or extra length )
7S

[TWO4BRIDGE]

deleted... double post