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IMP. They vul. Casual advanced partner.
1♠ - pa - 7NT - pa
pa - Dbl - pa - pa
Rdbl - all pass
♠K9652
♥93
♦1073
♣J103
Lead against 7NTxx Real board
#1
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Posted 2004-December-08, 02:43
#2 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2004-December-08, 03:06
spade for me...although this auction is insane and probably so is trying to make sense out of it im going to guess RHO has all the side suit aces for sure, the only ace he may not have is the spade ace. Presumably pards X is based on an ace or hes also insane. The XXer may just have extra values and is just making a stupid XX for that reason. This is my logic of an illogical auction.
#3
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Posted 2004-December-08, 03:08
Partner has probably an ace which is impossible to find if it's not the ace of ♠.
So let's go for ♠
So let's go for ♠
Alain
#4
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Posted 2004-December-08, 06:37
♥ for me.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#5
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Posted 2004-December-08, 08:08
Free, on Dec 8 2004, 06:37 AM, said:
♥ for me.
me too.
#6
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Posted 2004-December-08, 09:10
This is an insane auction, leading to a impossible lead problem. I have a king, rho didin't ask for aces, and partner has enough to double. Clearly it seems partner has an ace, and the double should probalby be a lightner double (on this kind of auction the Lightner Double should mean that the partner must lead the dummy's first bid side suit) asking for a spade lead.
So if double ask for a spade, what is redouble? Can opener be showing the spade ace or is the redouble a pscyhe to try to talk me out of the "obvious" lead given the doube. Am I going to let the redouble (risking converting -500 into -1000 for them if I lead a spde into a gain +2980 if it talks me out of the right opening lead).
Ok... this is unsolvable without some clues. Partner is casual advanced player. If we can assume he would double only when strongly desiring a spade lead (the meaning of double here imho), I strongly lean towards a spade.
But then I turn next to the redouble. Who is the redoubler. Is he some sneaky expert kind of guy who might try to presuade me from the correct spade lead when lacking the ♠Ace? Or is he a very sane player who looking at the spade ace feels comfortable redoubling. We know declarer took a huge gamble here not asking for aces, which would have avoided all this headache.. (bop him on his head... and say don't do this.... he is making your life miserable).
In final analysis, I guess if opener is missing both Ace and king of spades, how can responder have enough outside of spades for a leap to 7NT? (becasue opener's points will have to be in the off suits). So I will assume my partner, lookng at an ACE just felt he had to double (down one undoubled would be just as good). The problem becomes if I don't lead a sapde (boy if I don't lead one and partner has ♠Ace, there will be a lot of explaining to do...this might be the best reason to lead a spade), which of the other three suits to lead.
Can delcarer have 8 or 9 hearts? Not likley as partnen didn't use unusual NT overcall at favorable vul. Can delcarer have 8 or 9 clubs or diamonds? Probably not because partner didn't use michaels cue bidder with major/minor two suiter. What is declarer has a balanced hand, then we are sure to score partner's ACE. So that leaves declarer best chance missing a side ace and without a lot os spade tricks (we do have king fifth after all) as a two suiter as source of tricks. So it is a guess as to which two suits he might have. But whatever two suiter he has, if partner has the ace in one of those he is down, if partner has the ace in the other one, they might make if we don't lead the right suit now, and if declearer is 0-6-5-2, a spade lead might allow him to win spade queen then ace, and throw away his Kx in the short suit.
Ok.. I guess here is what I would do. With my normal partner, or an expert partner who I can fully expect to know that double means lead a spade, I will lead a spade as requested. Otherwise, It is a difficult choice between the other three suits, but probably a ♥ simply becasue with heart/minor two suiter, declearer would be more likely to explore hearts than leap immediately to grand slam.
I will admit with a casual partner the choice here really a total guess. And which ever you do, it could be wrong....but at least on a ♠ lead you can say..."well you asked for a spade" and save face when wrong.. but a 3200 point swing on the opening lead is not something you wish to get wrong at imps.
So if double ask for a spade, what is redouble? Can opener be showing the spade ace or is the redouble a pscyhe to try to talk me out of the "obvious" lead given the doube. Am I going to let the redouble (risking converting -500 into -1000 for them if I lead a spde into a gain +2980 if it talks me out of the right opening lead).
Ok... this is unsolvable without some clues. Partner is casual advanced player. If we can assume he would double only when strongly desiring a spade lead (the meaning of double here imho), I strongly lean towards a spade.
But then I turn next to the redouble. Who is the redoubler. Is he some sneaky expert kind of guy who might try to presuade me from the correct spade lead when lacking the ♠Ace? Or is he a very sane player who looking at the spade ace feels comfortable redoubling. We know declarer took a huge gamble here not asking for aces, which would have avoided all this headache.. (bop him on his head... and say don't do this.... he is making your life miserable).
In final analysis, I guess if opener is missing both Ace and king of spades, how can responder have enough outside of spades for a leap to 7NT? (becasue opener's points will have to be in the off suits). So I will assume my partner, lookng at an ACE just felt he had to double (down one undoubled would be just as good). The problem becomes if I don't lead a sapde (boy if I don't lead one and partner has ♠Ace, there will be a lot of explaining to do...this might be the best reason to lead a spade), which of the other three suits to lead.
Can delcarer have 8 or 9 hearts? Not likley as partnen didn't use unusual NT overcall at favorable vul. Can delcarer have 8 or 9 clubs or diamonds? Probably not because partner didn't use michaels cue bidder with major/minor two suiter. What is declarer has a balanced hand, then we are sure to score partner's ACE. So that leaves declarer best chance missing a side ace and without a lot os spade tricks (we do have king fifth after all) as a two suiter as source of tricks. So it is a guess as to which two suits he might have. But whatever two suiter he has, if partner has the ace in one of those he is down, if partner has the ace in the other one, they might make if we don't lead the right suit now, and if declearer is 0-6-5-2, a spade lead might allow him to win spade queen then ace, and throw away his Kx in the short suit.
Ok.. I guess here is what I would do. With my normal partner, or an expert partner who I can fully expect to know that double means lead a spade, I will lead a spade as requested. Otherwise, It is a difficult choice between the other three suits, but probably a ♥ simply becasue with heart/minor two suiter, declearer would be more likely to explore hearts than leap immediately to grand slam.
I will admit with a casual partner the choice here really a total guess. And which ever you do, it could be wrong....but at least on a ♠ lead you can say..."well you asked for a spade" and save face when wrong.. but a 3200 point swing on the opening lead is not something you wish to get wrong at imps.
--Ben--
#7
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Posted 2004-December-08, 09:43
inquiry, on Dec 8 2004, 03:10 PM, said:
So if double ask for a spade, what is redouble?
Obviously, SOS
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
#8
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Posted 2004-December-08, 10:12
inquiry, on Dec 8 2004, 10:10 AM, said:
but at least on a ♠ lead you can say..."well you asked for a spade" and save face when wrong..
He He ...
Totally right !
Alain
#9
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Posted 2004-December-08, 10:38
Any lead other than a spade is foolish. Don't let the redbl talk you out of the obvious lead. Partner's dbl commanded a spade lead. You comply. Very simple. Trust your partner. Don't even think about it.
If I made the dbl with the ♠A and my partner thought for more than 2 seconds before leading a spade, I might never play with that person again.
If my opening lead determines the contract's fate, and my partner dbled 7N without the ♠A, I definitely would never play with that person again.
If I made the dbl with the ♠A and my partner thought for more than 2 seconds before leading a spade, I might never play with that person again.
If my opening lead determines the contract's fate, and my partner dbled 7N without the ♠A, I definitely would never play with that person again.
#10
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Posted 2004-December-08, 12:39
Only resson i see for this bid is the 7NT bidder lucking the A of spade and another A but have the a long minor suit and a spade void.
Your partner has an A will i would try to find it in spade.
Your partner has an A will i would try to find it in spade.
#11
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Posted 2004-December-08, 13:04
I lead a spade.
If partner has a different ace, can they take 13 top tricks anyway? I don't know, but less likely than if he has the ace of spades. Because I have the king and my LHO has 5 so the 7NT bidder could be sitting there with a bundle of tricks outside the suit.
Ok, so what was the full hand?
If partner has a different ace, can they take 13 top tricks anyway? I don't know, but less likely than if he has the ace of spades. Because I have the king and my LHO has 5 so the 7NT bidder could be sitting there with a bundle of tricks outside the suit.
Ok, so what was the full hand?
You can't keep a good man down
#13
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Posted 2004-December-08, 16:40
Woohoo! I was right 
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#14
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Posted 2004-December-08, 16:46
Free, on Dec 8 2004, 05:40 PM, said:
Woohoo! I was right
It is not that you are right. It is that the dbl was wrong.
Senshu
#15
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Posted 2004-December-08, 17:30
nice
#16
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Posted 2004-December-09, 08:00
HeartA, on Dec 8 2004, 04:46 PM, said:
Free, on Dec 8 2004, 05:40 PM, said:
Woohoo! I was right
It is not that you are right. It is that the dbl was wrong.
not as wrong as 7nt and xx
#17
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Posted 2004-December-09, 08:25
Free, on Dec 8 2004, 06:40 PM, said:
Woohoo! I was right
Are you sure?
If you were playing with me, or with justin, or with most "experts" your heart lead would be very wrong. The reason why is we would all double ONLY IF WE WANTED A SPADE lead. With the given hand, I would simply pass 7NT, and my partner, through process of elimination would start a heart and down one would be the result.
This is why this is an insolvable problem. 1) Our partner was classified as occassional an advanced... this means we have never discussed ligthner doubles and since he is advanced, he may, or may not think they apply here, 2) we don't know if the redoubler is a "sharpie" trying a psychic redouble to keep us off a ♠lead or someone looking at the spade ace and thinking, a spade lead will not beat us.
The 7NT bid did one thing, it made a ton of imps swing on a blind opening lead. There may be close to 40 imps swing here. If you get it right, you win about 20, if you get it wrong, you lose about 20. And anyone (including me) who finally gave up and lead a heart, is well, taking a huge, huge gamble that partner doesn't know what he is doing and the opponents (at least WEST) is being honest. It is usually much better to trust partner.
--Ben--
#18
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Posted 2004-December-09, 08:45
While it is kinda natural that the double asks for a spade lead, isn't it also natural that any double of 7NT shows an ace? Isn't it better to use double as "I have an ace - try and guess which, but please don't lead passively", instead of "please lead a spade". Note that a spade lead isn't even that unusual: there is a real chance pard will lead a passive spade without a double.
#19
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Posted 2004-December-09, 09:19
7nt = ridiculous bid for a ridiculous contract with a ridiculous dbl !
so, a ridiculous hand !
so, a ridiculous hand !
Alain
#20
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Posted 2004-December-09, 09:28
joker_gib, on Dec 9 2004, 11:19 AM, said:
7nt = ridiculous bid for a ridiculous contract with a ridiculous dbl !
so, a ridiculous hand !
so, a ridiculous hand !
Not terribly riduculous. Imagine behind late in a team game needing a huge swing. 7NT would be brilliant stroke then. Imagine a short imp tourneyment with 6 boards and after 3 you are dead average, needing a lot of imps to move foward.
Thus, 7NT is a tatical bid that could be made for a lot of reason, not the least of which is it might be cold, or a blind opening lead might give it to you. The chances of me ever making this bid is very low... I would only make it in a barometer team event needing a lot of imps late, but one can hardly argue with the success of this bid here. Most of the readers chose a spade and I see in real world, the leader choose a spade. This is "worst or first" bridge if this was in tourney, but so be it.
--Ben--