[paulg]

Scoring: MP

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North [space] East [space] [space]South [space] [space]West
Pass [space] [space]1[sp] [space] [space] [space]4[he] [space] [space] [space] 4[sp]
5[he] [space] [space] [space]5[sp] [space] [space] [space]?

You cannot make a worse decision that I did, so what would you do and is it "obvious"?

p

[mila85]

Depends on your style and vulnerability.
Do you bid 4h with x Axxxxxxx x xxx when nonvul.?
If you do your partner should have some values for his raise and I would bid 6♥ now.
If the hand from your post is minimum for 4h, partner can raise with nothing and they can make (unreachable) 6s - I pass.

[Free]

Imo this hand is way too strong for an immediate 4♥ bid. Now ofcourse you get into trouble since you don't know if you have a forcing pass available or not...

Cut the crap, bid 6♥, and next time Dbl first

[inquiry]

cardsharp, on Dec 6 2004, 11:32 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

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North [space] East [space] [space]South [space] [space]West
Pass [space] [space]1[sp] [space] [space] [space]4[he] [space] [space] [space] 4[sp]
5[he] [space] [space] [space]5[sp] [space] [space] [space]?

You cannot make a worse decision that I did, so what would you do and is it "obvious"?

p

PASS

At imps, you could hardly have much less for your vulnerable 4♥ bid, that is, you hold no surprises. You promised something like 8 to 9 tricks and with your partner's 5♥ bid, you can count your eight bagger as eight tricks, and you have a side ace, that is nine tricks. Just in the range of what you promised, so don't be a hero and bid the same values twice.

Another warning here. Partner did not invite your particpation by bidding 5♣ or 5♦. There might be some discussion of whether or not a pass by your partner would be forcing over 4♠. I know some people who play it as such, but I don't. But it was the lack of partner's fit-non jump bid over 4♠ that will persuade me. If we are making slam, partner will have ♦Ace and ♣QJT or ♣KJT. With those cards, especially KJT of clubs, we would have heard a fit nonjump 5♣.

A side issue, a 6♥ bid here alllows them to use a focing pass with a ♥ void and not much value.. .that could be disasterous for you if it lets them find a slam.

Ben

[whereagles]

I'm guessing, and my guess is double. I would try and stay out of this sort of decision next time That's easier said than done, though.

[mike777]

Pass

You have made the opp make a guess at 4 and 5 level.

Partner is a passed hand and did not cue 5c or 5d. This seems like a very reasonable 4h vul after a pass from partner.

Partner is allowed to bid again.

[luke warm]

i'd pass... agree with mike, partner is still breathing over there

[pclayton]

Partner will never bid over 5♠.

As far as my decision; its rather tough. While partner did not show a club or diamond feature; all this tells me is that partner does not have a concentration of values. He could have: x, Qxxx, xxxx, xxxx (they are on a trump guess for 6; but 6♥ x'd is going for -800) - or he could have void, Qxxxx, Axx, xxxxx (stiff diamond lead is beating 5♠, but 6♥ is frigid). Do we play 4N here shows a 'good' 5♥ call, without a concentration of values? It helps to know.

What is the field doing with this hand? I wouldn't be surprised if nearly everyone is faced with this same decision. While the hand is a very heavy 4♥ ( I prefer 5♥ - surely you're not selling out to 4♠ with this!), I think most would bid it.

Since we're guessing the field will have the same decision, I think the old bromide about the 5 level does not apply.

I'm not going to bury my head in the sand with pass. Yes we've made them guess, but we've committed the mortal sin of matchpoints; creating a situation that gives US the LAST guess. You've done this by only bidding 4♥. If we had a normal preempt of: x, AQxxxxxx, xx, xx, who would even think of bidding here?

At IMPs, its an automatic 6♥ call, followed by a double of 6♠. I probably would double, since I don't think that we can make 6♥, but I think 6♥, is a very practical call, since it also encourages the opponents to 'bid one more'.

You've created a problem with 4♥. If you start with 5♥, you can live with any subsequent decision partner makes.

[mike777]

I still pass

Great points Phil. Playing LOTT with both VUL:

1)Hand one and two examples I would bid 6h not 5h the first time, we have 12 and 13 hearts.

[HeartA]

6H asked too much from pd. Pass should be the right bid.

[paulg]

A better problem than I envisioned thanks to the interesting postings from Phil and Free.

I did consider double as a first action but opposite a passed partner decided to go for maximum pressure. I did not consider 5♥ and, although I will eventually bid it, still do not think that it's the best initial action as it is so committal. In this auction I consider myself a little unlucky that partner can support and give me the last guess at the 5-level. There may well be something in a 2♥ overcall although no-one has suggested this

At the table I passed, but I now think this is a clear error and double is the right call to show that I had a legitimate 4♥ bid. Like Ben's agreements I do not see partner as being in a forcing pass situation over 4♠ (indeed I'm surprised that *anyone* has such an agreement) and so partner could have found stronger bids than 5♥. Even now we are not in a forcing pass situation but double seems best.

In the actual hand partner held
♠ x
♥ xxx
♦ Axxxx
♣ QJxx

and 6♥ makes if you guess the clubs. We were a pickup partnership which probably explains why 4NT wasn't bid.

Cheers

p

[mike777]

Card,

5D seems clear with that responder hand not 5H. Now 4h bidder has important information if OPP bid 5 or 6s next.

[inquiry]

cardsharp, on Dec 7 2004, 01:01 PM, said:

♠ x
♥ xxx
♦ Axxxx
♣ QJxx

and 6♥ makes if you guess the clubs. We were a pickup partnership which probably explains why 4NT wasn't bid.

The odds of "picking up clubs" is not overwleming here. You need to find singleton King, or find doubleton King on side, or doubleton Ten offside, and you guess right.

Even if they show you their cards so you can't misguess if EAST has KT doubleton (when queen is lead), and yow will play small to the ACE when there is stiff king behind you.. .even then, if you add up all the chances, the odds of picking up the club suit is only 13.%... and when you can pick the ♣ up without a loss, you are not really going to have that high odds as you will have some serious guessing to do. On the other hand, 5♠X rates to lsoe 2♣, a ♦, a ♥, and a diamond ruff, for three down with any luck. +800 would seem to be a good score to me.

[HeartA]

Completely agree with Ben.

[paulg]

mike777, on Dec 7 2004, 07:33 PM, said:

Card,

5D seems clear with that responder hand not 5H. Now 4h bidder has important information if OPP bid 5 or 6s next.

I agree, but in a pickup partnership it may be a dangerous way to discover if partner is really the expert he claims

[paulg]

inquiry, on Dec 7 2004, 08:01 PM, said:

The odds of "picking up clubs" is not overwleming here. You need to find singleton King, or find doubleton King on side, or doubleton Ten offside, and you guess right.

Even if they show you their cards so you can't misguess if EAST has KT doubleton (when queen is lead), and yow will play small to the ACE when there is stiff king behind you.. .even then, if  you add up all the chances, the odds of picking up the club suit is only 13.%... and when you can pick the ♣ up without a loss, you are not really going to have that high odds as you will have some serious guessing to do. On the other hand, 5♠X rates to lsoe 2♣, a ♦, a ♥, and a diamond ruff, for three down with any luck. +800 would seem to be a good score to me.

I agree with Ben too

Getting +800 was possible (and worth lots of matchpoints) but needed perfect defence (which no-one managed) so two down was popular.

We found a blinding defence to beat it by one (!) trick, the details of which would be edited by the forum censor if I posted it ... +50 did not worry the scorers too much.

[Fluffy]

ITs a clear double, you have to show you have defensive values and your previous 4♥ wasn´t a crap, partner may still run to 6♥ if he feels like it.