[kgr]

MP's

---

North opens 1♥ and opps are silent.
If South bids 2♣ this is: 10+ with ♣s OR 3c♥ support and 10+.
Partner will rebid 2♦=5c♥, 12(11)-14 HCP
1♥-2♣!
2♦-3♥ = slam-interest

If you start with 2♦;
- and rebid 3♦ that is GF
- and 3♠ is splinter (1=3=5+=x)

What is your plan?

[mikeh]

I really dislike the idea of 2♣ with this hand. It strikes me as a unilateral assumption of captaincy, conveying almost no meaningful information to partner and thus impairing his ability to exercise his judgement (which I suspect we all 'know' isn't as good as ours, but shouldn't we give the poor guy/girl a chance to improve?).

So I bid 2♦.

Over 2♥, I splinter. Now partner knows I went out of my way to show my diamonds and can infer that I had a reason to do so. Now he can look at his hearts and clubs and decide whether to cooperate.

If he bids anything else (not a jump) I bid hearts, which I assume is gf. If for any reason a cheap heart bid isn't gf, then I would choose something else.

[neilkaz]

I would plan to show 5+♦ 3 card ♥ support and my ♠ splinter which seems to be the hand I hold. As mikeh points out, hopefully pd will realize that I had a reason to show my ♦.

[kenrexford]

Is this a joke question?

I have, apparently, two means of showing support for partner and GF values.

On option one, I can show 3-card support with slam interest.
On option two, I can show 3-card support with slam interest, plus a stiff spade, plus real diamonds.

I have 3-card support with slam interest, plus a stiff spade, plus real diamonds.

Why is this a debate?

Why is Mike offering nuanced reasoning?

Whi is Neil hoping that partner can work out that I have diamonds when I bid diamonds naturally?

[PhilKing]

Ken, you just made me spit coffee all over my laptop.

[kgr]

sorry, my imagination was running too fast.
I was imaging that partner had 3 of 5 aces, including the S Ace and wondered how to know if 6N or 6H was the best contract.
1H-2C
2D-3H
3S-4D
4S-4N
5D-6H
or
1H-2C
2D-3H
3S-4D
4H-4N
5D-6N

[kenrexford]

kgr, on 2012-October-17, 14:19, said:

sorry, my imagination was running too fast.
I was imaging that partner had 3 of 5 aces, including the S Ace and wondered how to know if 6N or 6H was the best contract.
1H-2C
2D-3H
3S-4D
4S-4N
5D-6H
or
1H-2C
2D-3H
3S-4D
4H-4N
5D-6N

If partner has 12-14 HCP with three of five Aces, which makes up 11-12 HCP, then he only has 0-3 extra cards in his hand. Unless you want to play an anti-percentage slam, you probably want him to also have the heart Queen. So, you probably need ♠A ♣A ♥(A/K)Q, ♠A ♥AKQ, or ♥AKQ ♣A. 6NT only makes sense if he has ♥AKQ ♠A, and even then it is less than 50-50. So, why are you even thinking about 6NT?

[kgr]

kenrexford, on 2012-October-17, 14:51, said:

If partner has 12-14 HCP with three of five Aces, which makes up 11-12 HCP, then he only has 0-3 extra cards in his hand. Unless you want to play an anti-percentage slam, you probably want him to also have the heart Queen. So, you probably need ♠A ♣A ♥(A/K)Q, ♠A ♥AKQ, or ♥AKQ ♣A. 6NT only makes sense if he has ♥AKQ ♠A, and even then it is less than 50-50. So, why are you even thinking about 6NT?

It started from looking at a hand with ♠A and ♥AKQ and I wondered how we could go to 6N played by S iso 6H played by North.
Then I wondered how we could find out if North has ♣A iso ♥A or K.
...forgetting that the system only works if partner has 3 aces and ♥A.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kgr, on 2012-October-17, 10:58, said:

MP's

---

North opens 1♥ and opps are silent.
If South bids 2♣ this is: 10+ with ♣s OR 3c♥ support and 10+.
Partner will rebid 2♦=5c♥, 12(11)-14 HCP
1♥-2♣!
2♦-3♥ = slam-interest

If you start with 2♦;
- and rebid 3♦ that is GF
- and 3♠ is splinter (1=3=5+=x)

What is your plan?

The 2D and then 3S splinter seems obvious.

What if your minors were reversed, would the following in your system show a similar hand?
with 5+♣, 3♥and stiff ♠ :
1H - 2C!
2D - 3S ?

[PhilKing]

2♦ then 4♥. Once partner shows a minimum, slam tries are pie in the sky. For every one time you find partner with AKQxx and the club ace, you will go down twice in five when partner makes a second try with a great but non-perfect minimum.

Even both black aces and KQxxx is no sure thing, particularly if pard has three small diamonds. And if partner has Axx Axxxx xx AQx or similar, he is never stopping, he never has the T9 of hearts, and I have the scars to prove it.

[the hog]

Not bidding 2D on this hand is the greatest travesty of bidding that I would ever have seen on these fora.
Follow it up with 3S even after a min 2H bid.

[mikeh]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-17, 19:30, said:

2♦ then 4♥. Once partner shows a minimum, slam tries are pie in the sky. For every one time you find partner with AKQxx and the club ace, you will go down twice in five when partner makes a second try with a great but non-perfect minimum.

Even both black aces and KQxxx is no sure thing, particularly if pard has three small diamonds. And if partner has Axx Axxxx xx AQx or similar, he is never stopping, he never has the T9 of hearts, and I have the scars to prove it.

where does the OP suggest that 1♥ 2♦ 2♥ shows a minimum?

It doesn't in any 2/1 method, for example, nor even in standard, in which the 2♦ bid guaranteed another call over 2♥. The 2♥ rebid rules out certain specific maximums, but is commonly used more or less as a stall on a wide range of hand types, especially for those for whom it doesn't promise 6+.

[Zelandakh]

Seriously, just bid your hand cooperatively until you know enough to take control. Masterminding before you know enough to ask the right questions is just bad bridge.

[rhm]

Zelandakh, on 2012-October-18, 02:34, said:

Seriously, just bid your hand cooperatively until you know enough to take control. Masterminding before you know enough to ask the right questions is just bad bridge.

Seriously, I do not see the question as silly.
MP is a different game or at least it can be played differently. The arguments brought forward so far are biased towards IMPs play.
There is a fine distinction between masterminding and realizing when it is your turn to take a decision.
Bidding diamonds, when you have all the honors, does not help your partner, because a good player with fine judgement will consider his diamond holding a liability almost irrespective of how many diamonds he actually has.
At MP it can be as effective to get a diamond lead against a heart contract after hiding them than bidding a slam nobody else reaches.
For example 1♥-2♣!-2♦!-4♥ is a great MP auction, but not many people understand MP well.

I guess Barry Crane would approve.

Rainer Herrmann

[kgr]

mikeh, on 2012-October-17, 22:23, said:

where does the OP suggest that 1♥ 2♦ 2♥ shows a minimum?

I didn't state it, but it is any 12-14

[kgr]

rhm, on 2012-October-18, 04:44, said:

Seriously, I do not see the question as silly.
MP is a different game or at least it can be played differently. The arguments brought forward so far are biased towards IMPs play.
There is a fine distinction between masterminding and realizing when it is your turn to take a decision.
Bidding diamonds, when you have all the honors, does not help your partner, because a good player with fine judgement will consider his diamond holding a liability almost irrespective of how many diamonds he actually has.
At MP it can be as effective to get a diamond lead against a heart contract after hiding them than bidding a slam nobody else reaches.
For example 1♥-2♣!-2♦!-4♥ is a great MP auction, but not many people understand MP well.

I guess Barry Crane would approve.

Rainer Herrmann

Are these arguments only valid at MP's? (especially the 1st one)

[kgr]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-17, 18:00, said:

The 2D and then 3S splinter seems obvious.

What if your minors were reversed, would the following in your system show a similar hand?
with 5+♣, 3♥and stiff ♠ :
1H - 2C!
2D - 3S ?

Yes: splinter with 3-card ♥, 5+card ♣, GF

[PhilKing]

mikeh, on 2012-October-17, 22:23, said:

where does the OP suggest that 1♥ 2♦ 2♥ shows a minimum?

It doesn't in any 2/1 method

Liggins/Fawcett used to do this (and I think still do, but often changing) - step 1 basically any non-shapely min. I don't care for it myself.

Seemed OP was doing same (would hardly do it over 2C and not 2D, though it's possible).

rhm, on 2012-October-18, 04:44, said:

For example 1♥-2♣!-2♦!-4♥ is a great MP auction, but not many people understand MP well.

I guess Barry Crane would approve.

Rainer Herrmann

There may be a fly in the ointment. We are told that the opponets are silent, but we do not know that when we respond - they may be about to get together in spades. I would feel pretty sick if I responded 2♣ and the bidding was at 4♠ by the time it got back to me.