[gnasher]

Fluffy, on 2012-October-17, 06:13, said:

Hehe, me too, seems gnasher was right on all his assumptions except one, he forgot to preclude partner from saving with zero defensive tricks

I've looked it up too. Partner was barking mad.

[PhilKing]

I'm guessing partner is from the "school of bonkers sacrifices". And I can't stop him without a crazy double.

We really shouldn't have doubled 5♣.

[bluecalm]

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Would not have Xed 5♣ since I will be on lead

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We really shouldn't have doubled 5♣.

I doubled 5♣ to show we have double fits and sacrifice is possible. Is it bad ?
Now I obviously didn't consider 6♠ myself. I thought my options were pass or double. Pass having this disadvantage/advantage that partner will save with: say Kxxx - xxx KQxxxx which rates to be great for us if they really have ♣ void. It will be a disaster if they haven't though.
Another thing is that it enables us 5S sacrifice vs 5H which rates to be great w/e they have but maybe I should've tried 5S myself ?

[PhilKing]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-17, 07:24, said:

I doubled 5♣ to show we have double fits and sacrifice is possible. Is it bad ?

5♠ is brutalised when North has a void club, which he will a fair amount of the time. And it's 800 when partner does not have a heart void, assuming a club lead (South's actual choice of lead was weak. ♦A was clear if he doesn't fancy a club. Maybe he was watching X Factor or something).

And it's not as if -500 the holy grail, and by showing a double fit when the opponents are looking for slam, we invite a later sacrifice. With kx in their suit and fairly dull distribution, this is not a hand I want to go to war with.

[Fluffy]

we have 9 black cards and partner bid 4♣ to ask us to evaluate double fit, it can't be very wrong to do so, but the 4♣ bid is not right so it makes double look worse than it actually is.

If double is gonna be understood as marginal fit in clubs I think it is right.

[PhilKing]

Fluffy, on 2012-October-17, 08:08, said:

we have 9 black cards and partner bid 4♣ to ask us to evaluate double fit, it can't be very wrong to do so, but the 4♣ bid is not right so it makes double look worse than it actually is.

If double is gonna be understood as marginal fit in clubs I think it is right.

Give partner the club queen in adition to the cards he held and it's difficult to criticise his bidding too strongly (for anyone who hasn't looked up his hand it was ♠K653 ♥- ♦9763 ♣K8732).

But the club queen makes no difference if South has the wit to lead a club (and it's an easier lead from xxxx than Qxxx). It's all very well that double shows a marginal club fit, but we need to be able to draw trumps to stop ruffs when partner bids. Since North is likely to have the ♠A for his slam try, doubling 5♣ just asks for trouble, and there would be no one left to blame.

[Fluffy]

a 4♣ bid is intended to tell partner that: diamond honnors are slightly defensive, club honnors are very offensive, club lenght is very offensive, club shortness is defensive.

From the 4 info that it transmits, only the last 2 are true.

4045 is not about clubs and spades, its about heart shortness, he should bid 4♠.

I would like more a 4♣ bid with ♣QJxxx than KQxxx at least it tells partner aobut the use of ♣K if he holds it.

[PhilKing]

Fluffy, on 2012-October-17, 09:02, said:

I would like more a 4♣ bid with ♣QJxxx than KQxxx at least it tells partner aobut the use of ♣K if he holds it.

Bidding 4♣ tells pard that any length and strength in clubs is good for offence. Doing it on QJxxx and not KQxxx is crackers.

If our hand were AJxxxx xx xx AJx, we make 11 tricks in spades if North has a stiff club, and we probably don't get there without the 4♣ bid. Our actual hand is junk and just should not get involved.

[kayin801]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-17, 07:24, said:

I doubled 5♣ to show we have double fits and sacrifice is possible. Is it bad ?
Now I obviously didn't consider 6♠ myself. I thought my options were pass or double. Pass having this disadvantage/advantage that partner will save with: say Kxxx - xxx KQxxxx which rates to be great for us if they really have ♣ void. It will be a disaster if they haven't though.
Another thing is that it enables us 5S sacrifice vs 5H which rates to be great w/e they have but maybe I should've tried 5S myself ?

On this auction I would consider bidding 5♠ myself and consider defending 5 or 6♥. 5♠ now or over 5♣ seems better if I didn't want to defend 5♥. I don't see why we need to get partner involved in this decision, how different a hand can he have from the one he held? Once we X 5♣, we've told partner that he is allowed to think for himself, maybe put our ♥K into ♠s to double 5♣ since our hand is now more offensive. We are actually holding a bunch of defense and we know a lot more about partner's hand so we are the ones who need to determine how far to compete. I for one don't think west is all that crazy: "I have a heart void, 4 card support, and diamond length so partner may be short, AND partner wants my opinion?" 6♠ isn't that unreasonable a bid.