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After they overcall 1NT

#1 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 10:35

Assume a natural 5-card major system with a 15-17 notrump, with either short club or longer minor.

After your partner opens 1, and the next hand overcalls 1NT:
- Do you, or should you, play any artificial methods, and if so what?
- Are these different from what you play after the opponents open 1NT, and if so why?

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-September-27, 11:03

... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#2 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 10:45

Yes, I play 2 as both majors and 4-suit transfers. The reason why it's not the same as after we open 1NT is because we didn't open 1NT... Besides with semi-balanced strong hand you can always Dbl.

The goal is to get overcaller on lead.
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#3 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 11:04

View PostGerben42, on 2012-September-27, 10:45, said:

The reason why it's not the same as after we open 1NT is because we didn't open 1NT.

I was asking why it's not the same as after the opponents open 1NT. I've edited my original post to make this clearer.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#4 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 11:16

No, it's not the same, because opener's has restricted his possible shapes. Our defence to 1NT allows us to show 54, 34(51) and 35(41). Showing three spades opposite a 1C opening is pretty useless, and showing four diamonds on the side is much less useful than showing tolerance for partner's clubs. We play 2C = majors, 2D = one major, 2M = fit-showing [this can be F1 or NF depending on what hands are included in the opening].
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#5 User is online   paulg 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 11:59

We play our weak notrump defence, ignoring partner's opener. And we didn't need Justin to suggest that playing double as penalty in this situation was a good idea.
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#6 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 12:02

We play the same method in both cases, suction with pass or correct at all levels (and penalty doubles).
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#7 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 12:21

I think the situations are sufficiently close enough that we should play the same defence.

That may not be theoretically best, but it's easier.
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 12:28

I have seen enough and heard enough arguments for using the same methods as responder after a 1NT overcall as we would use over a 1NT opening. Pard and I are convinced that is the way to go, and now we just have to stop procrastinating and change :rolleyes:

Edit: was referring to the concept. It would be silly for us to use the actual same methods, since we are CRASH people. But, double to play and something like landy would probably be fine.
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#9 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 13:38

Any method that lets opener play the hand and lets you show both majors after you open a minor is best.

How you get there seems less important.
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#10 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 17:21

there is significantly more safety involved with bidding over the opps 1n overcall than their
1n opener. When it is an overcall the power of our hand plus p opening bid gives us
a fairly decent idea of how high we can go at a minimum. For ex I would x 1n overcall for
penalty with say Kxx Kxx QJx Axxx but I would pass with this hand over a 1n opening bid.

With a hand like QJT9xx Kx Ax xxx I would be happy to X 1n overcall for penalty but would prefer
to be able to bid 2s after a 1n opener.

With a hand like KQJxxx xx xx xxx it would be nice to be able to bid 2h transfer after a 1n overcall
but i would pass a 1n opening bid unless the vulnerability made a spade bid reasonably safe.

Being able to show 2 suits is also important and i use 2c (over opps 1n overcall) to show any 2 suited hand.
The main reason for this is because if I have values opps most likely will rarely be able to compete effectively so
there is no need to rush to show my 2 suits and the fact I did not x limits the overall power of my hand
very effectively.(ie im willing to compete but not strong enough to x).

When rho opens 1n (and i have dia and hearts) if I can convey that message in one bid p will have a huge head
start if the opps compete (which they may well be able to do opposite a non opening/passed partner).
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#11 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 20:01

gszes: that is a good discussion of when we would like to act, and most would agree. I believe the tools we should use after a 1NT overcall are more important to resolve than whether or not we want to bid. And that part of this thread, IMO, needs needs some more participant input.

Suction is interesting.
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#12 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 21:41

Elianna and I play our weak notrump defense, which is basically natural except 2 shows either both majors or 4M+longer minor.

It seems generally good to play your weak notrump defense here; being able to show majors is important and being able to raise clubs isn't really (partner usually has a weak notrump on this sequence). This also has the advantage of being easier to remember than having a special defense for this auction. Obviously this will depend somewhat on the nature of your weak notrump defense.
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#13 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 15:03

We don't play the same methods. We play 2C as both majors and everything else natural. Double is penalties.
I don't really see why I want to play the same methods, because I'm going to double on all decent 9+ HCP hands and I am less likely to want to be in the auction with a much weaker hand unless it has a 6-card suit or both majors.
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#14 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 19:51

I play 2 as two places to play, one of which may be opener's suit. So after 1-(1NT) I would bid 2 with any of:

QJxxx QJxxx xx x
QJxxx xx QJxxx x
xx QJxxx QJxxx x
QJxxx xx xx QJxx

This seems to work pretty well. Maybe I play too much against bad opponents who don't lift the bidding to the three level until we have had a chance to sort out what the two places to play actually are. But I would want to bid on all of the above hands without having to take a stab at something and get it wrong.
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#15 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 03:53

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-September-28, 15:03, said:

We don't play the same methods. We play 2C as both majors and everything else natural. Double is penalties.


Ditto.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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