[Fluffy]

billw55, on 2012-September-11, 14:38, said:

Interesting. I would have thought that this double shows spades almost everywhere. Where do people still play direct penalty doubles of simple overcalls?

Many people in my country bid 1♠ to show spades (4+), and double to ask for the other suits, this translates to 3 types of hands:

-balanced weak hand without stopper nor support nor 4 spades (♠xx ♥Jxx ♦KJ9xx ♣Qxx) this type has high frequency (around 80% of the doubles)
-weak 1 suiter in the other minor (♠xxx ♥xx ♦AQJxxx ♣Jx)
-strong hands without spades nor support (the hand on this post is an extreme example, most often this hands have 3 spades)

[sailoranch]

cistern, on 2012-September-11, 06:59, said:

4S I take is an asking bid, asking partner to choose between Clubs and Diamonds

Didn't South ask North to choose between clubs and diamonds? By bidding clubs and diamonds?

[sailoranch]

Fluffy, on 2012-September-11, 14:47, said:

Many people in my country bid 1♠ to show spades (4+), and double to ask for the other suits

That's fine, but that wasn't the agreement here. You wouldn't just whip out a treatment common in your country on an unsuspecting partner and then shame her on BBF, would you?

[Codo]

It is not just known in Spain, I guess experts all over the world at least know it.
But may you name many people who think that a one suiter in spades should be bid by double of 1 ♥ and a jump to 4 ♠ afterwards? Funnily- I am one of them, in one partnership X shows 4+ spades, 1 ♠ denies 4 or more of them. But this is not part of this problem either- and in my world, my opponents never bid and rais a suit, where my partner holds a onesuiter playable in game opposite no sign of support from my side at all....

So as much as I understand the problem with understanding 4 ♠, passing was just crazy.

[Fluffy]

sailoranch, on 2012-September-11, 16:09, said:

That's fine, but that wasn't the agreement here. You wouldn't just whip out a treatment common in your country on an unsuspecting partner and then shame her on BBF, would you?

I am not all over the world to tell you, but as Codo says the double = 4 spades might be mainstream in USA and/or other countries but it doesn't make it mainstream worldwide either. At least I know well enough to consider other options when there are no agreements.

What I am pretty sure its not mainstream anywhere is that double might have more than 4 spades, so even if south has never encountered someone who doubles without spades, he shouldn't pass a bid that assures him to play on a 4-2 fit, it is ridicoulous

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2012-September-12, 03:08, said:

What I am pretty sure its not mainstream anywhere is that double might have more than 4 spades

Double as 4+ spades and 1♠ as values without a convenient bid is quite a common agreement these days. However, the agreement in play here was exactly 4 spades so the last pass is clearly crazy. It is just (slightly) less crazy than North's bidding. From South's point of view it might well look like East is psyching spades. Or, put another way, say the auction was

P - P - 1♣ - 1♥
X - XX - 2♦ - 2♥
4♠

(X = exactly 4 spades, XX = some kind of support)

What would you expect the 4♠ bidder's hand to look like now?

[Codo]

Zel, your example is impossible. YOu pass first, then you have exactly 4 spades and no hearts, but still nothing to support partners suits? A 4232 Hand maybe?

[centrioles]

South's 1♣ opener is the problem. Almost every expert on the planet advises a 1♦ opener, avoiding the inevitable problem later on in the bidding. It's a small lie, but it HAS to be done.

After the reverse, North's desire for game is sound.

[aguahombre]

centrioles, on 2012-September-17, 21:18, said:

South's 1♣ opener is the problem. Almost every expert on the planet advises a 1♦ opener, avoiding the inevitable problem later on in the bidding. It's a small lie, but it HAS to be done.

After the reverse, North's desire for game is sound.

Actually, no. There are 4-5's in the minors which are 3-1 in the majors where experts disagree on whether to open 1D or 1C; With the given hand, I believe most players would open 1C and hope to be able to rebid 1NT.

They also debate on whether the 2D rebid is a true reverse after the negative double. (It should be, IMO.) South does not have a 2D bid on the given auction, if it shows reverse strength; he has a pass.

[CSGibson]

billw55, on 2012-September-11, 14:38, said:

Interesting. I would have thought that this double shows spades almost everywhere. Where do people still play direct penalty doubles of simple overcalls?

Another option (which I have played) is that double shows values without 4 or more spades and unsuitable for a 1N overcall/raise of opener's suit. Something like Kxx 873 AQxx Jxx would be perfect. If you play that style, then 1♠ is 4+. Though obviously that is not what they are playing, since they have an easy 1N or 2C or 2H bid, depending on their agreements/evaluation.

[bigbenvic]

In my neck of the woods (Australia) the common treatment of the X here is both the unbid suits 4+ and 4+ and when partner bids 2♦ it's not a reverse, but promises a minimum opening hand with 4♦ Or a good hand that wants to say more but doesn't have a 'good bid'. The jump to 4♠ would then be a slam try in one of pards suits, most likely ♦.

Again not part of the system being used. I think the pass of 4♠ is horrible, I agree that partners action is unusual and I'm not sure what is going on but at the table I'm bidding, not passing (probably 5♣ cheapest get out). I don't like 4S that much without a clear understanding but if South was 3145 and K♠ the k♦ slam is a good place to be.

The 2♦ bid is an overbid - especially with Qx ♥, so that makes 2 bad bids to 1 so I blame south. 80%