[Fluffy]

flytoox, on Nov 22 2004, 02:52 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Nov 21 2004, 11:27 PM, said:

Double is not a good call on this hand.

"You know pd is likely to pass".

Really? Why? partner's usually support when they have it. The problem with X is threefold :
it does not emphasise the H
doubling with a S void is not pleasant if partner leaves it in
If I x and next hand bids 3S and pd passes, now what? Do you want to guess 4H?

THere are just too many hands you want to play in minors or in 4H but pd will pass if you bid a simple 2H.

If pd has:

QXXX
KX
XX
QJXXX

you want to be in 4H, or 6C. But pd will pass your 2H. Or shouldnt he?

If pd has

QXXX
X
QXXXXX
AX

you want to be in 6/7D, but pd will pass your 2H.

If pd has
QXXX
X
XX
AQXXXX

you want to be in 6/7C, but pd will again pass your 2H.

Even pd has
QXXX
XXXX
XX
XXX
you still want to be in game.


There are so many hands pd will pass your 2H.

My dear flytoox, I won´t pass a 2♥ overcall from partner on most of the hands you posted, on teh first one you have a clear 3♥ raise, the second is the tough one, ok I might pass since the ♦ suit is so poor, the third won´t matter, since regardless of what you do over 2♥ (I woudl bid 3♣) opponents are gonna bid, and with the 4th opponents are gonna be active again.

[HeartA]

pclayton, on Nov 21 2004, 01:35 AM, said:

Pass. Don't want to tell them about their 20 point game or 26 point slam.

that's what I think, too.

[inquiry]

HeartA, on Nov 23 2004, 01:18 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 21 2004, 01:35 AM, said:

Pass. Don't want to tell them about their 20 point game or 26 point slam.

that's what I think, too.

You guys are too cautious. Partner made a vulnerable 2-over-1, you hold four spades. If they play in some 5-3 or 6-2, or even 6-3 spade fit, they are in danger of losing control on repeated heart leads (especially 6-2 or 5-3), and five of a minor is a long way off. To add to that, the chance of a 5-3 or 6-3 fit is greatly reduce due to no 2♠ call over 2♥.

The real "trick" to this hand is not do you make a mastermind pass to trick them into thinking you don't have a fit (if WEST makes a takeout double of 2♥ after your pass and east is looking at one heart, do you really think they are going to be fooled?) but rather with a presumed 11 card fit (partner rates, on average, to have six hearts here) do you make the normal bid of 4♥ or do you pull in a little in deference low Offensive to defensive ratio (spade Queen, 4th spade, club Queen rate to be better on defense than offense)? LOTT says to bid 4♥, but common sense says 3♥ is more than enough.

Note, if you play 3♥ here as some kind of invitational bid (yuck), you will have to grin and bear it and bid 4♥ after all. Many (most?) experts play 2♠ and 2NT here different kind of good raises, with direct raises to 3 or 4 as weak.

Ben

[PriorKnowledge]

2H is good call, but could not argue with X

Advancer dropped the ball, big time. Whether you bid 3H or 4H, you cannot pass. LOTT says bid 4H, but with ♠Qxxx and 2-2 in minors, 3H might work out better. But pass with 5-card support because you only have 5hcp is poor bidding.

[inquiry]

I like 2♥ at first, and then double back in second. If you double first, you will miss playing in your 6-3 heart fit too many times. Consider,

(1S)-DBL-(Pass)-2♦
(3S)-?

even 2♠ here. causes some problems, or consider

(1S)-DBL-(2S)-Pass
(3/4S)-?

or

(1S)-DBL-(2s)-3D
(3/4S)-?

Now on this hand, with your partner having a surpise five hearts, you will find your heart fit with double or bidding hearts at first. But, and t his is important, doubling first with six hearts can lose your major. I love the 2♥ overcall, I do not like the initial double.

Ben

[pclayton]

Well, you might twist my arm and make me bid 3♥ call, but thats about it. My experience AT THESE COLORS tells me that 4♥ is just too much. All too often, we get doubled and go for -500. End of story.

Ask yourself what you would do if partner OPENED 1♥? I think you would get a very critical reaction of 4♥. Most here would opt for a preemptive 3♥ raise, citing the low ODR.

I've seen Ron's hand and I can sympathize. Even after a 3♥ raise, I think its a bit much to get to 6. As it turns out everything in my hand is fantastic; the doub ♦ and the Q♣ are all pulling their weight. I doubt his reason for posting was to demonstrate how good a slam it was; I think he wanted to show that we need to get to game.

I think the tap scenario in 4♠ is relevant only when hearts are 3-0, if spades are 5-3. RHO didn't raise spades, so spades rate to be 6 or 7 long in LHO. That's if they have a spade fit at all.

Lets look at a few other hands pard can hold for the 2♥ overcall:

xx
AKxxx
Kxxx
Kx

4♥ looks to be a quiet down 1. +130 for them - not much to discuss.

x
AKxxxx
Qxx
Kxx

Hard to determine. 4♥ is again -1. 4♠ requires a little care, but not much. Assuming spades are 6-2, the tap won't come into play, assuming declarer knocks out the K♣ first. Will they get there? LHO knows to bid 4♠ over 4♥, whenever its reasonable (how many times have we said that around here).

xx
KJTxxx
Kx
Kxx

You say you wouldn't overcall on this at adverse? I would. Partner is condemned to -500.

x
AKJxxx
Axx
Kxx

About the best reason for raising to 3 is hands like this. Will pard carry on to 5 over 4♠? Lets hope not.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Nov 23 2004, 02:22 PM, said:

Well, you might twist my arm and make me bid 3♥ call, but thats about it. My experience AT THESE COLORS tells me that 4♥ is just too much.

Well, I never argued for 4♥ with this hand. In fact I argued against it.

[the hog]

Yes I doubt whether you or anyone will get to slam and that was not the reason for posting it. I just wondered whether anyone else would find the unbelievable, (to me anyway), pass.

[Fluffy]

pass is just a psycke bid Ron, I could do it or not, you should understand, after all you are the 4-handed player not me!