[Wackojack]

Scoring: MP

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West North East South
p p 1♣ 2♥
p p 3♣ p
p dble p ?

South's vul against not overcall of 2♥ shows about 6 playing tricks with 6 hearts. Obviously South's bid depends on what is understood by North's double.

These are the rules that I would apply:
1. Double is for take-out when a possible fit has not yet been found. Is there a possible fit? Partner knows you have 6 hearts so could raise on a doubleton + 2 possible outside tricks. Partner with 5 good spades and a willingness to compete, would have bid 2♠ earlier or if not 3♠ now.
2. Double is for take-out sitting under the suit opener.
3. Double is for penalties when partner's suit bid is narrowly defined. E.g. 3♥ -3♠-dble.

After all this deliberation I think that the double is not based on holding a club suit and is competitive based on values in the 2 unbid suits and probably a singleton heart but certainly no more than xx. So I bid 3♥ expecting to make.

Do the experts agree?

[flytoox]

I dont see the point to play dbl as takeout here.

[pclayton]

Initially, I'd say its cooperative, meaning: if you bid 3♥ partner, you won't be dissapointed, and if you leave it in, thats fine too.

But this doesn't make any sense in this context. Would you honestly say you'd pass a 2♥ overcall holding: AQxx, Qx, xxxx, Kxx? This is my idea of a cooperative double. So, I think I agree with Fly - you have a string of clubs and a misfit for partner.

[EricK]

In certain auctions you need a bid which says "They've made a mistake".

This is one of them.

Eric

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Nov 20 2004, 03:52 PM, said:

Would you honestly say you'd pass a 2♥ overcall holding: AQxx, Qx, xxxx, Kxx?

Ummm...sure, why not?

How about:

AQxx xxx xxx KQx?

Partner's promised about 6 tricks, you have about 2 3/4 (keeping in mind most of the non-heart strength is to your left). I don't see why we should be exploring game. 3 card support is wonderful, but 4333 cancels that out to a large extent.

I don't know if it should be penalty or not, but I don't see why it couldn't be cooperative.

[luke warm]

i'd play it as 100% penalty

[Wackojack]

luke warm, on Nov 20 2004, 07:18 PM, said:

i'd play it as 100% penalty

OK what do you bid as North holding

♠107652
♥6
♦AKQ7
♣864

3♥? 3♦?

[Fluffy]

With that I would pass or double for penalties if I feel agressive, I play no take out doubles after a 6 card suit has been shown.

[inquiry]

Fluffy is right... the way I state this rule is...

All my doubles are for "takeout" as long as the double doesn't have some other conventional meaning (ligntner, double of their stayman, double of their jacoby transfre suit, double of 1NT), unless we have found a fit.

What constitutes we have found a fit? If partner has raised (that one is easy), if partner has preempted (we assume to have "found a fit" after either of us has preempted) if we make a transfer bid over partners 1NT, and if partner bids a suit I have promised.

Simple rule... partner jump bid 2♥, thus we have "by definition" found a fit. So here a double is not "takeout". I would play this double as optional, and iwth this hand, I would correct to 3♥ at imps, but leave in at matchpoints.

[EarlPurple]

Wackojack, on Nov 21 2004, 12:31 AM, said:

luke warm, on Nov 20 2004, 07:18 PM, said:

i'd play it as 100% penalty

OK what do you bid as North holding

♠107652
♥6
♦AKQ7
♣864

3♥? 3♦?

Pass, of course.

The auction seems an unlikely one though. Couldn't open the bidding, partner has shown no defensive values and has not supported partner, yet decides to come in with a double here, under the 3♣ bidder.

[Wackojack]

inquiry, on Nov 20 2004, 10:04 PM, said:

Fluffy is right... the way I state this rule is...

All my doubles are for "takeout" as long as the double doesn't have some other conventional meaning (ligntner, double of their stayman, double of their jacoby transfre suit, double of 1NT), unless we have found a fit.

What constitutes we have found a fit? If partner has raised (that one is easy), if partner has preempted (we assume to have "found a fit" after either of us has preempted) if we make a transfer bid over partners 1NT, and if partner bids a suit I have promised.

Simple rule... partner jump bid 2♥, thus we have "by definition" found a fit. So here a double is not "takeout". I would play this double as optional, and iwth this hand, I would correct to 3♥ at imps, but leave in at matchpoints.

OK I accept all of that and if west doubles after 3♣ is passed round, it is NOT a take-out double and neither is it a penalty double. Following a recent strand on doubles, it seems that you cannot limit types of double to penalty or take-out. As you say this double is optional or cooperative.

Below is the full hand which came up in a club duplicate. I was sitting west as passed as many of the contributors recommended. I was afraid that partner would think it was unambiguously for penalties. The result was a round zero for us when 3♣ came in for -110. We might have defeated the contract for +50 for a near bottem, but partner mistakenly led a 3rd round of hearts looking for an uppercut trump promotion. This exposed the club position for declarer dropping the doubleton queen.

Scoring: MP

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West North East South
p p 1♣ 2♥
p p 3♣ p
p p

It seems clear now that I should have taken some action and doubled. The double MUST be saying "I have a shortage in your suit but I have tricks in my hand and don't know if it would play better in defence or attack. I will leave the decision to you.

Contrast this with another hand that came up the same evening.

Scoring: MP

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South West North East
1♣ 2♦ p p
3♣ p p p

This time I was East with clubs sitting under the opener and was content to pass, leaving South to go down 1 in 3♣ for an average score.

[EarlPurple]

The fault seems to lie though with your partner whose hand is far too strong.

The purity of the long suit and the extra fitting side suits mean that the total tricks exceeds the total trumps on this hand (total trumps are only 15 but total tricks are 18 - that is quite an excessive difference, as it happens, normally it is out by 2 at most).

[Free]

Dbl = penalty, end of story

[jtfanclub]

Wackojack, on Nov 21 2004, 08:05 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

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West North East South
p p 1♣ 2♥
p p 3♣ p
p p

I obviously don't understand your system (I'm familiar with but have never played intermediate jump overcalls). So this is an honest question, not rhetorical...

Is there a reason you can't just bid 2♠ over 2♥? I can't believe this is forcing even for an unpassed hand (which you aren't). It can hardly be a much worse fit, and you have enough points that if your partner bids 3♥ or 3NT you should be content. You may even talk them out of a spade lead and allow you to make 9 tricks in the other suits on the run.

But maybe this has a meaning I'm not familiar with.

[the hog]

Just a few points: this is not an IJO. The CQ and DJ are trash.
Secondly, why anyone would want to introduce a motheaten 5 card S suit at this point when pd has advertised a decent 6 carder is an anathema to me. X is penalties here.

[Wackojack]

We play "sane" WJO's. So VvNV it would be 6 playing tricks, 6-card suit possibly 7. 2S over 2H to me would be saying "I have a decent spade suit and tolerence for hearts, inviting game if partner has a feature in spades. So I wouldn't wish to bid spades here.

I think X over 3C should be optional, competitive, cooperative whatever, but not a command to pass for penalties. Since so many contributers say penalties... I invite all to give me a bidding sequence of their choice playing their system that ends in the optimum contract of 3H.

[mikestar]

Scoring: MP

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As usual in these cases, the problem is the first bid. A WJO or an IJO should have a high offense/defense ratio. Wuth the garbage cards in the minors South doesn't. Much better is

(P)-P-(1C)-1H; (P)-1S-(2C)-P;(P)-2D

Now partner can offer 2H based on his solid suit and you can push on to 3H if east trys 3C.

Scoring: MP

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Here the JO is reasonable. You probably don't want to double for penalties because of your finessable holding, but swap the K and Q of clubs and you will want to.

[Chamaco]

In general, w one of the rules fr discriminating t/o from penalty doubles is:
w"hen pard's hand has been described, X = penalty."

The Weak Jump Overcall is used to describe fairly well the hand, so X is penalty.

However, the auctions is very curious, in that it is hard to construct a passed hand which can see 4 defensive tricks on its own while the weak 2 overcalle may at most provide 1 trick in defense.
Even with the given hand, doubling for business is close to lunacy at IMPS and even at MP is almostcrazy.