[bglover]

You pick up this hand:

AKQ
j9x
xx
q10xxx


You open 1C, partner responds 1H, you raise to 2H (i would not on J9X but u and partner have agreed to 3 card raises). Partner bids 3d, you bid 3h, partner now bids 4d

1c-p-1h-p-2h-p-3d-p-3h-p-4d-p-? YOUR BID? Reasons?

[inquiry]

Hi Steve,

I actually like raises with 3 card support. But that is not the essence of the question. I think if there was a mistake in the bidding, it was your 3 HEART rebid. I would have rebid 3NT over 3Diamonds. Heck you got a ton of stuff in Spades and only 3 card support. Let your partner know that there is an alternative contract to HEARTS.

OK. So now you forced me to bid 3H, and partner bids 4D. He is making a slam try with no Spade honor and no Club honor. If he can't cue-bid a club control, you really cant bid slam. So in this auction, I bid 4H. I play partner for

S-xx  H-AKQxx D-AKJx C-Jx, or maybe
S-x H-AKQTx DAKQx CJxx (although with this i bid 3S over 3H).

And I think if partner is looking at
S-xxx H-AKQTx AKQx Cx, he still should have cue-bid 4CLUBS.

What I will not do is cue-bid 4S now, since I am missing any club honor. If you feel you need to participate in slam try after the 3D bid, you could have cue-bid 3S then.

[YesHoney]

Frequently when you agree to support on 3 cards, you have also a way to find out if 3 or 4 cards and if opener is minimum or maximum within the range of his rebid.  If no such agreement exists I will take 1c 1h 2h 3d to be a game try and bid 3h.  And after 4d (which denies S and C control) there is an easy 4h bid.

[the hog]

There is nothing wrong with supporting on 3 cards. The 3H bid in the given sequence is poor and guarantees 4 card support. You have an easy 3NT bid. Note that this is an offer to play this contract. If pd now bids 4D, I would take his 3D bid as an advance cue. I assume we are bidding 1st and 2nd round controls. He would appear to be denying a C control here, so a sign off is warranted.

[hrothgar]

Quote

You pick up this hand:

AKQ
j9x
xx
q10xxx


You open 1C, partner responds 1H, you raise to 2H (i would not on J9X but u and partner have agreed to 3 card raises). Partner bids 3d, you bid 3h, partner now bids 4d

1c-p-1h-p-2h-p-3d-p-3h-p-4d-p-? YOUR BID? Reasons?

Tricky hand

Partner's 4D bid is a strong slam try.
I've shown a minimum hand twice and partner is still trying for something more than game.  

Slam is a good proposition if partner holds as little as

xx
AQxxx
AKQxx
x

Given what I COULD be holding for this bidding sequence, I'm feeling fairly enthusiastic about my hand.  I'd be much happier if we were using a cue bidding style in which 4D denied a 1st or 2nd round control in clubs, however, I'm assuming that we are using traditional NA methods in which 4D promises a first round diamond control but does not deny a second round club control.

At the table, I would probably bid a practical 5H, asking about the quality of partner's trumps.  I know that we have a club loser.  I believe that the biggest risk to making 6H is a slow trump loser.  5H lets me focus on this immediately while preventiing the opponents from making any pesky lead directing doubles.

Even is we happen to have two club losers off the top, the opps will need to find the right lead.  Forced to make a blind lead, it will be hard to find a club if the honors are split.  The opps may chose to lead a spade through my indicated strength, or better yet a trump which will help us to pick up the suit.

[bglover]

As an addendum to this post... I agree with both that the proper rebid over 3d is 3N on this hand... But I am not sure I agree that 4H is correct after 4d. I am with Richard on this...

Now, let's assume that the bidding has gone 1c-1h-2h-3d-3n-4d... would you show spd control now (i.e., 4s over 4d?),

[inquiry]

2over1 said... "Now, let's assume that the bidding has gone 1c-1h-2h-3d-3n-4d... would you show spd control now (i.e., 4s over 4d?)"

No, No, No, NO!!!

Even in the event that your cue-bidding style is to cue-bid first round controls before second round controls, your partner had the opportunity to cue bid 4 CLUBS with a second round control (having denied a first round control on the last round of bidding). Since your partner's choice of cue-bids denys a first or second round control of clubs, and careful examination of your own hand you will show that you lack a first or second round control in clubs, how can you consider bidding on? 4SPADES shows not only a control in SPADES, but also a control in CLUBS, by inference.  QED

Thus, you should only bid 4 SPADES only if you have suicidal tendencies or playing with an illogical partner. The meaning of 4 DIAMONDS is very clear. If I had to quess, your partner is 2-5-4-2 or 2-6-3-2 with really good red cards, but you have two club losers (of course if they lead a SPADE you make six).

[bglover]

I have but one answer to that... Your partner opened 1C, so bypassing that bid to show slam interest (on the assumption your partner can control suit with opening bid) seems not unreasonable.

Now, many people do not cue bid 2d round control until all 1st round controls accounted for... The responder's hand was indeed a nice, strong 2551 hand with nice hearts... this is why I prompted this question precisely.. The fact that Ben would not show a spade control while Richard would was why I thought this was worth a post... IN ALL CASES I personally believe that opener has a duty to bid 4S over 4H in case partner has a 2d round club control, or. as Richard suggested, just bid 5H.

I do not think (personally) it is incumbent for the heart bidder to show a club control... He has a right to expect that suit isnt a problem... He has to find out about spade cards before he can really get excited...Over 4s I would bid 5c (actually looking for seven) showing 2d round control.

OPENER HAS FAILED to disclose where his real strength is... How can he NOT show partner the spade cards when partner is so clearly fishing for that information? This is a STRONG auction and to NOT bid spades would say to me that opener's points are all concentrated in the club suit... exactly the information that responder cannot act on.

I don't even think this one is a close call... I am truly surprised 3 people took the position that responder had to cue bid his club shortness while no one thought that it was important to show where opener's real concentration of strength was... The only thing I do agree with is that over 3D clearly 3n is operner's correct and only option... I do think from there responder can cue bid clubs (hearts having been agreed on as a trump suit) and go from there.

[the hog]

One further point is that on the ACTUAL auction, (not how it should have gone), we may very well be in a 4-3 fit. Remember pd thinks you have shown 4H. I know pd is strong but having already misled him by showing 4 trumps I am prepared to give up on this hand and apologise.

In answer to 2/1 above. Firstly we need to have the agreements to bid 1st and 2nd round controls. With a regular partner this is obviously something that has been discussed. With a pick up partner?? Good luck.

Why should responder believe that C are under control? Consider the following :

AKQ
Jxxx
Qx
Qxx

Opposite

xxxx
AKQx
AKJ
Jx
These hands are totally consistent with the bidding to date

[hrothgar]

Quote

2over1 said... "Now, let's assume that the bidding has gone 1c-1h-2h-3d-3n-4d... would you show spd control now (i.e., 4s over 4d?)"

No, No, No, NO!!!

Even in the event that your cue-bidding style is to cue-bid first round controls before second round controls, your partner had the opportunity to cue bid 4 CLUBS with a second round control (having denied a first round control on the last round of bidding). Since your partner's choice of cue-bids denys a first or second round control of clubs,.

In what way, shape or form did partner deny a club control?  3D should show shape.  It is NOT some form of advanced cue bid.

[inquiry]

Let's examine your comments
Your partner opened 1C, so bypassing that bid
to show slam interest (on the assumption your partner
can control suit with opening bid) seems not unreasonable.....


Why should either partner EVERY have to cue-bid opener's suit then? Do you only open a suit with first or second round control? You know this is nonsense. Shall I go through the myhands site and find out how many suits you opened at the one level in the past week without ACE or KING?  And it is unnecessary to "ASSUME" (when you ASS-U-ME you make an ASS out of U and ME), you can use cue-bidding to find out what suits are, and are not, controlled.

And, this is important, there is a perfectly acceptable way to find out if your partner has first or second round control of spades on this auction

Next you said:
Now, many people do not cue bid 2d round control
until all 1st round controls accounted for...

Well, you cue-bid 3D showing first round control, then you cue-bid diamonds again (4D).  Are you just showing the ACE again, since all the first round controls have not been accounted for? Of course not. You already denied the SPADE and CLUB Ace (when you skipped both 2S and 3C to bid 3D). So you are now showing second round controls. This time you skipped clubs, so denying contol.

You said.
IN ALL CASES I personally believe that opener has a duty
to bid 4S over 4H in case partner has a 2d round club control.
The perfectly normal way to find out if your partner has a SPADE control is to show your CLUB control. Of course if the auction goes,
1C-1H-2H-3D-3N-4C <<-- you are absolutely sure to get to slam, with no risk at all for grand slam. Your partner, having heard that you lack the club ACE (you didn't bid 3C) and have the club KING or singleton (you cue-bid 4C) will easily recongnize the value of the SPADE AKQ. Now bidding on is easy. You see... if you SHOW WHAT YOU have, your partner can bid logically. Thus you get to 6H opposite
xxx AKQxx AKQJ x,
J  AKQT9 AKQJ Jxx but you play in only 4H (not five hearts down) opposite

This last hand is just one example why your partner doesn't cue-bid 4S over 4H. Now you will get to either 6H or 5Hs (of course, since you assume your partner has control of clubs, you get to 6H I suspect, but even 5H is in severe danger, as they have the club AK and one of them will have a singleton or doubleon, so they may take the first two club tricks and a club ruff.

It is amazing how better a bidder YOUR PARTNER will become, if you make it easy for him to bid logically. Your 4D cue-bid made it very clear, that you are trying for slam. Looking at AKQ of spades, and not hearing a 4 club cue-bid, it is also very clear that you have tremendously strong red suits. But, again, it is equally clear you have no club control.

You said
I do not think (personally) it is incumbent for the heart
bidder to show a club control... He has a right to expect t
hat suit isnt a problem... He has to find out about spade
cards before he can really get excited... Over 4s I would
bid 5c (actually looking for seven) showing 2d round control.

Here your logic is fatally flawed. You want to find out about your partner's SPADE control, but by skipping over your CLUB control, you place the emphasis SQUARELY on the club suit. If you don't cue-bid your club control, the only way you will find out about the spade control is if your partner has BOTH a club control and a SPADE control. Paradoxically, the best way to find out about the spade control is to cue-bid your club control. There is no reason to wait "until" your partner cue-bids 4S to show your second round club control by bidding 5C. You can show that at the four level while placing the emphasis on the SPADE suit instead of the CLUB suit. And again, I think your position that no one needs to cue-bid openers suit to show a control a very weak cue-bidding strategy.

You said

How can he NOT show partner the spade cards when partner is
so clearly fishing for that information?

Logically, partner is NOT yet fishing for SPADE information. He is fishing for CLUB information. Partner could very likely be...
S-void H-AKQTxxx D-AKx C-xxx   or
S-xx  H-AKQTxxx D-A  c-xxx

So I agree that over 4D your partner is fishing alright, but he has casted his net looking for a bid CLUB Fish.

You said

This is a STRONG auction and to NOT bid spades would say to me
that opener's points are all concentrated in the club suit...
exactly the information that responder cannot act on.

Again, to be overly redundant, to find out about SPADES, all you had to do was show your CLUB control. YOU TOLD your partner that clubs was a problem, and your partner looks at his hand and says, YUP, if you think clubs are a problem, I do too....

You said

I don't even think this one is a close call... I am truly surprised
3 people took the position that responder had to cue bid his club
shortness while no one thought that it was important to show where
opener's real concentration of strength was...

Maybe rather than being surprised, you should stop and take a look at how the rest of the world plays CUE-BIDDING. First we don't ASSUME our partners only open a suit headed by ACE or KING. Second, we describe our controls so partner figure out what it is we need from him. I happen to favor cue-bidding first or second round controls up the line. Thus, my auction would have been....

1C-1h-2h-3C-3s-4nt-ACE REPLY-6H, or, on your auction where you cue-bid first round controls first....
1C-1H-2H-3H-3N-4C-4S(or 5H)-> getting to slam. Over 5H you know you are off C-ACE, over 4S, you can ask aces.

[inquiry]

Quote

In what way, shape or form did partner deny a club control?  3D should show shape.  It is NOT some form of advanced cue bid.

I would respond to 3D by bidding 3NT. In otherwords, I would respond as if it was showing shape and value and exploring best game contract. When partner pulls 3NT, it turns the 3D into an advanced cue-bid. And now, that he has bypassed clubs twice, he has denied a club control (distibutional or stregnth).

[hrothgar]

Quote

I would respond to 3D by bidding 3NT. In otherwords, I would respond as if it was showing shape and value and exploring best game contract. When partner pulls 3NT, it turns the 3D into an advanced cue-bid. And now, that he has bypassed clubs twice, he has denied a club control (distibutional or stregnth).

I'm well aware of what an advance cue bid is.
However, I don't think that these normally apply when the captain has not had the opportunity to show ANYTHING about shape.

If 3D can be intepreted as an advanced cue, then the only thing that is known about the 1H bidders hand is that he has 4+ hearts.  This makes it impossible to have any kind of intelligent auction or to judge how the two hands fit together.  

Responder's first rebid needs to be natural so that partner can understand whether the hand type is balanced, single suited, or two suited.

[bglover]

Well, I am totally in agreement with Richard's comments here (saved me a lot of writing, thx) and I stand by my logic-- nothing Ben has said has swayed me in the least, but this is why I have posted this auction... I thought it might generate a little action (sorely needed around here lately).

But, I think we can all agree that if the opener had responded 3nt instead of 3h over 3d, then the auction actually becomes easier, as now responder pulls by bidding 4c, which clearly cannot be to play... That was the REAL mistake in my opinion.

[easy]

Most seem to think that opener should rebid 3n over 3d. Question. If 3d is a game try with hearts as trump suit. should opener accept the game try by bidding 3n or reject the game try and bid 3h?

[inquiry]

hrothgar said (btw, I do this color thing because the quote boxes are so darn small you can't read it)
"However, I don't think that these normally apply when the captain has not had the opportunity to show ANYTHING about shape."

I disagree totally. The great thing about being CAPTAIN is you don't have to show anything about your shape...especially on an auction like this. Your partner is a) minimum (2H bid), balanced with something in spades (3NT bid).  I don't think the CAPTAIN has to describe his hand, its the job of the first mate to do the descibing.

hrothgar said "If 3D can be intepreted as an advanced cue, then the only thing that is known about the 1H bidders hand is that he has 4+ hearts.  This makes it impossible to have any kind of intelligent auction or to judge how the two hands fit together."  

3D can NOT BE interpreted as an advanced cue-bid until after opener pulls 3NT. Now opener is no longer 4+, but 5+ and showing slam interest.  You said you knew what an advanced cue bid but maybe others don't -- when you bid a suit like 3D its first carries ia natural meaning, but the second CUE-BID converts the first from a normal "natural bid" to a cue-bid. After opener rebid 3NT and responder pulls, responder knows exactly how well the hands fit together and very closely the exact point count of opener. (opener is limited and probably only 3 hearts). So when he pulls 3NT he knows exactly what he is doing, what information he needs, and how he is going to find what he needs to know.  

hrothgar said Responder's first rebid needs to be natural so that partner can understand whether the hand type is balanced, single suited, or two suited.

Why? I disagree totally. Does it matter that responder doesn't try to describe any of these hands specifically as one suiter, two suiter or balanced?  

1)    xxx AKQTxxx AK  x
2)    x  AKQTxxx  AK  xxx
3)    xx AKQTx  AKQJ xx
4)    xxx AKQTx AKQJ  x
5)    x  AKQTxx  AKQ  xxx
6)    xx AKQTxxxx  A  xx
7)    x  AKQTx  AKQxx xx
8     xx  AKQTx  AKQxx  x

He doesn;t have to describe his hand specifically. He just needs his partner to co-operate logically.  The bidding up to 3NT is ok. Over 3NT with 1, 4, and 8 he cue-bids 4C, and you get to 6H (knowing you are off the CLUB ACE) without ever discovering if opener is one suited (number 1) two suited (number eight) or somewhere in between (number 4). With 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7  he can re-cue bid 4D and you stop safely in 4 hearts, again without the captain ever revealing the nature of his hand.  That is the essecences of being CAPTAIN.

[inquiry]

Quote

I stand by my logic-- nothing Ben has said has swayed me in the least, but this is why I have posted this auction...

You still stand by it is reasonable to PLAY (expect) that when your partner opens a a suit he will have first or second round control in the bid suit?  This hand, of course, proves that is not the case. But since you didn't open this one, does the following hand look familar?

S-KQ97 H-875 D-AKJ C-J86  ? you opened it 1Club yesterday

how about

S-AQ42 H-AT D-J642 C-AK2  ? opened 1D

At the very least, if nothing else, you should at least admit that people open suits without the A or K quite frequently. I don't know what the percentage would be, but I would think 20% or 25% would not be a surprise to me.

At the very least, you generated a lot of discussion about cue-bidding.  But I already knew that our cue-bidding understanding is quite different from a 5H contract we got too and you started another very long thread here to discuss and a slam hand from a few months ago. The long discussion in this thread doesnt; prove anyones view is right or wrong. Nor does it mean that your view is wrong, but of course, my view is right.  

[bglover]

LOL

[Codo]

Hi all,

I am totally with "the" inquiry. Maybe just one more thought about another part of the bidding.
Didn`t this hand "proofes" (as much as one hand can ) that it is no good idea to raise the major respond on any single hand with 3 card support? (Like your pd wanted you to do?) I like it with unbalanced hands. But here...
If you had used the same approach Aunt any would use, the auction starts with:

1 Club-1 Heart
1 NT     3 Diamond (5/5 Gameforcing)
3 Heart 4 Club        (3 Card support, Club control,
                               but no spades control)
4 Diamond              (spades control, NO diamond control)
           ...   4 NT
5 Diamond 6 Heart    and claiming....

Isn`t bridge easy?

Kind Regards

Roland

[hrothgar]

Quote

hrothgar said (btw, I do this color thing because the quote boxes are so darn small you can't read it)
"However, I don't think that these normally apply when the captain has not had the opportunity to show ANYTHING about shape."

I disagree totally. The great thing about being CAPTAIN is you don't have to show anything about your shape...especially on an auction like this. Your partner is a) minimum (2H bid), balanced with something in spades (3NT bid).  I don't think the CAPTAIN has to describe his hand, its the job of the first mate to do the descibing.

Potentially you might prefer to switch to a relay system.
You might find that this suits your bidding style better.