Forcing or Not ? New Minor Forcing auction
#1
Posted 2012-July-16, 20:09
1NT - 2om
2M ( 3 cards M ) - 3M = forcing or just invitational ? ?
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m = minor
om = other minor
M = Major
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I think 3M is forcing showing at least 5 cards M because an invitational sequence would go:
1m - 1M
1NT - 3M
Also, I thought that ANY Responder rebid that goes BEYOND 2NT AFTER NMF is forcing.
However, I can't find any examples on the above NMF sequence in the few references that I have.
I also think that if 3M is non-forcing after NMF , the problem could be solved with 2-way check-back
where 2C! ( always ) are NF or invite auctions and 2D! ( always ) are GF:
1m - 1M
1NT - 2D!
2M - 3M ( GF, asking for cuebids )
What say you ?
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#3
Posted 2012-July-16, 20:19
Over 2-way you have a useful choice to make. Some want 2D to be all game forces. I find 2D is better used as a slam invitation that does not promise a 5-card M. We put Inv and Game limit hands through 2C.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
#4
Posted 2012-July-16, 21:26
invite with 5 hearts
invite with 6 hearts
invite with 5 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades)
invite with 4 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades)
game forcing with 5 hearts
game forcing with 6 hearts
game forcing with 5 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades)
game forcing with 4 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades)
slam invite with 5 hearts
slam invite with 6 hearts
slam invite with 5 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades)
slam invite with 4 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades)
Maybe you don't care about some of these, but you can fit a lot more in with 2-way (at the cost of 2m not being natural). Also, how often does your rejected invites end up at the 3 level? Playing 2-way you can also fix that.
#5
Posted 2012-July-16, 23:42
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-July-16, 20:09, said:
1NT - 2om
2M ( 3 cards M ) - 3M = forcing or just invitational ? ?
If 2M here, by opener, is also showing weakness within the 1NT rebid range ---and it should, when using 1-way NMF ---then, responder doesn't need to repeat the invite; he already has the information that opener is on the weak side.
Responder's choices with the fit established are to Pass, or to bid game ---unless SLAMISH.
3M is not only forcing, but demands cooperative cuebidding.
#6
Posted 2012-July-17, 01:44
#7
Posted 2012-July-17, 03:00
Zelandakh, on 2012-July-17, 01:44, said:
That would be true, if 2M is bid with all hands containing 3 cards in M. But, that is a very inefficient use of NMF. There are some quite good continuation structures available, all of which use 2M as dual information ---3 cards in the major AND in the lower range of the 1NT rebid. The Wittes method and the Hardy method are two of those, and they have been around for over 30 years...still quite effective, without need for 2-way NMF unless we tangle spades as the other major into the mix because we would bypass spades (or rebid 1NT with a singleton).
#8
Posted 2012-July-17, 03:47
aguahombre, on 2012-July-17, 03:00, said:
As I wrote, there are ways around this problem. However, like it or not, when you agree NMF with a random partner they will almost certainly bid 2M whether they are min or max.
It sounds like you are arguing that NMF is better than 2-way here(?) To me, in most 5 card major systems it seems likely you get more from 2-way than NMF. If your opening bids are 5542 then the case for using NMF over 2-way diminishes further. That is a little more problematic in some Acol-ish systems after a 1♣ opening since one of the main advantages is the ability to reach a good minor suit partial when it is right.
#9
Posted 2012-July-17, 05:03
George Carlin
#10
Posted 2012-July-17, 11:26
There is only one auction that fits in your formula
1m--1♠
1NT--2♥
2♠...
Whether you play xyz or std nmf, 2♥ is NF, how can any subsequent bid after a nf 2♥ be forcing now when opener is limited ?
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#11
Posted 2012-July-17, 11:28
#12
Posted 2012-July-17, 11:46
As an example:
1♣-1♥
1NT-2♦
2♥-2NT
Whether xyz or new minor forcing or whatever the heck form 2♦ is, Responder bidding 2NT in this sequence type as "We have a heart fit. I am slammish. Start cuebidding." is a HUGE gainer, IMO.
-P.J. Painter.
#13
Posted 2012-July-17, 13:31
Zelandakh, on 2012-July-17, 03:47, said:
Yes, this is the problem and one of the many reasons I like XYZ but very few randoms know it.
#14
Posted 2012-July-17, 14:16
aguahombre, on 2012-July-17, 11:28, said:
Thanks, i knew i was missing something
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#15
Posted 2012-July-17, 16:57
kenrexford, on 2012-July-17, 11:46, said:
As an example:
1♣-1♥
1NT-2♦
2♥-2NT
Whether xyz or new minor forcing or whatever the heck form 2♦ is, Responder bidding 2NT in this sequence type as "We have a heart fit. I am slammish. Start cuebidding." is a HUGE gainer, IMO.
Perfect !
( Now I know why you were voted best theorist by BBO ) .
What better use for 2NT than for Responder to agree that there is an 8+ card fit ( Responder holding MORE than 4 cards M ).
If Responder only had 4 cards M and invitational values s/he could have bid 2NT directly over 1NT:
1m - 1M
1NT - 2NT
Now my question is should 2NT ( after NMF and a fit ) show the GF or 3M be forcing ( slammish as per kenRex .. ) as in my original auction ?
Because it has been put to me by an expert that an invitational bid is needed by Responder ( after NMF ) to show 5 cards M and an say an 11 count.
So, maybe 2NT might be better used for the invitational hand with a fit and
3H as GF , asking for cuebids.
Summary:
1m - 1M
1NT - 3H = 6 card M, invite
1m - 1M
1NT - 2om! ( NMF )
2M - 2NT! = 5 card M, invite
1m - 1M
1NT - 2NT = 4 card M, invite
1m - 1M
1NT - 2om! ( NMF )
2M - 3M! = 5+ card M, slammish, commence cuebidding
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#16
Posted 2012-July-18, 09:28
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-July-17, 16:57, said:
( Now I know why you were voted best theorist by BBO ) .
What better use for 2NT than for Responder to agree that there is an 8+ card fit ( Responder holding MORE than 4 cards M ).
If Responder only had 4 cards M and invitational values s/he could have bid 2NT directly over 1NT:
1m - 1M
1NT - 2NT
Now my question is should 2NT ( after NMF and a fit ) show the GF or 3M be forcing ( slammish as per kenRex .. ) as in my original auction ?
Because it has been put to me by an expert that an invitational bid is needed by Responder ( after NMF ) to show 5 cards M and an say an 11 count.
So, maybe 2NT might be better used for the invitational hand with a fit and
3H as GF , asking for cuebids.
Summary:
1m - 1M
1NT - 3H = 6 card M, invite
1m - 1M
1NT - 2om! ( NMF )
2M - 2NT! = 5 card M, invite
1m - 1M
1NT - 2NT = 4 card M, invite
1m - 1M
1NT - 2om! ( NMF )
2M - 3M! = 5+ card M, slammish, commence cuebidding
If the NMF could be invitational only (not present as a concern in xyz and similar approaches), then you are correct that an invite is needed.
If you are of the "game bash" school, use 3♥ for a general quantitative invite, 2NT as slammish, as that facilitates better and more complete cuebidding.
If you prefer science for game tries, 2NT as the game try makes sense, as this allows three of a minor (and maybe 3♥ if spades are agreed) to fine-tune game tries. You lose a bit on the slam moves.
A hybrid approach might be for 2NT to be a game try OR slam move, with Opener expected to make certain moves when accepting a game try to facilitate the "when its slam" situations. 3♥ then also serves some function, whatever you like. This approach would offer more detail to both slam and game sequences, at the cost of occasionally disclosing too much.
Obviously, balancing interests is the key.
-P.J. Painter.
#17
Posted 2012-July-18, 20:43
Mbodell, on 2012-July-16, 21:26, said:
invite with 5 hearts - already did - implicit in the NMF call
invite with 6 hearts - responder jumps to 3♥, not NMF
invite with 5 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades) - Responder must rebid ♠ before showing heart fit.
invite with 4 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades) - raise to 2N - partner must bid 3S on way to game.
game forcing with 5 hearts - Rebid 2N over whatever opener rebids
game forcing with 6 hearts - NMF then rebid 3 ♥
game forcing with 5 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades) no NMF - Hearts then reverse into spades
game forcing with 4 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades) rebid 3N - This is why I prefer to rebid 1 Spade over 1 heart.
slam invite with 5 hearts - rebid 2n or higher over opener's answer
slam invite with 6 hearts - rebid 3H - cuebidding ensues.
slam invite with 5 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades) - start with reverse and make one more move
slam invite with 4 hearts and 4 spades (if you rebid 1nt even with 4 spades) - 4N?
Maybe you don't care about some of these, but you can fit a lot more in with 2-way (at the cost of 2m not being natural). Also, how often does your rejected invites end up at the 3 level? Playing 2-way you can also fix that.
The 2-way structure I prefer uses yrennalF 2♥/♠ responses for weak and invitational 5=4/5 hands and allows 1♦-1♠-1N-2♥ to be game forcing. I prefer the 2♦ call to be Slam Inv+ and not promise a 5 card+ holding in responder's major. Similarly I play the Major suit reverse as game forcing but not slammish (1♣-1♥-1N-♠). Since we Invite slam with ♦, the ♣ trigger followed by 2N is a game force (see Ken Rexford's post).
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese