[hrothgar]

mr1303, on Dec 13 2004, 09:17 PM, said:

Yeah, we had two matches, one of which when hrothgar interfered over our strong club on a 4333 3 count. Which caused us to go off in the (arctic) 6NT, when my partner played him to have one useful card....

Dude, I didn't have a choice...

The defense is one that Free constructed. Pass is used to show certain strong hand types. Hoding a 4333, I'm forcned to bid 1♥ or 1♠

[inquiry]

A method that FORCES you to overcall with 4333 and 3hcp with 1♥ (or 1♠) could lead to utter disaster, especially vul. I suspect since 6NT was cold then 1♥X or 1♠X or 2 any minor doubled would not be a big susccess.... down seven is a possibility and down six likely. Not vul 1400 to 1700.. and vulnerable? Don't get me started... :-)

Ben

[the hog]

Free, on Dec 14 2004, 04:29 AM, said:

mr1303, on Dec 13 2004, 07:17 PM, said:

Yeah, we had two matches, one of which when hrothgar interfered over our strong club on a 4333 3 count. Which caused us to go off in the (arctic) 6NT, when my partner played him to have one useful card....

Hehehe, isn't my defense vs strong ♣/♦ great?

Btw, yesterday we used that same defense against nebulous 1♣ and 1♦ openings, without any problems! I think I'll continue this experiment for a while...

I would not call a defence that forces me to bid on a 4333 hand "great". Ridiculous is more the term I would use.

[Free]

I think Richard misread the defense: pass is allowed, but try to avoid it when NV... You CAN bid with any hand, even without HCP, but nothing is obligated!

[keylime]

There's an item of note - who's got the best defense over a strong club/diamond pass method?

[the hog]

What is the definition of "best". I wet myself laughing at those who claim that bidding over a big C with nothing is effective.

I like:
1D/H/S = canape overcalls, but not crap
X = good hand
1N = minors
2C = natural
2D/H/S = Tutti frutti, same as our 2 level openings. We play this over a natural 1C as well.

[inquiry]

I too doubt there is a best, but this is what I like... particulary I like the raptor-like 1♠ and 1NT bids.

DBL = clubs
1♦ - transfer to ♥, partner is not obligated to complete transfer
1♥ - transfer to ♠. parnter is not obligated to complete transfer
1♠ - raptor, 4+♠'s and unknown long minor
1NT - raptor, 4+♥'s and an unknown minor
2♣ = transfer to diamonds
2♦ = preempt in hearts, or ♠ ♣ two suiter
2♥ = preempt in ♠ or ♣ ♦ two suiter
2♠ = preempt in clubs or ♦ ♥ two suiter
2NT = monster two suiter, strong hand with good game chances despite their bid
3♣ = preempt in diamonds or bigger ♥ ♦ two suiter

Use paradox raises over 2♦ and higher.. for instance..

(1♣) - 2♥ - (dbl) - 4♦

2♥ showed either preempt in spades or both minors. 4♦ here shows ♠ fit and ♦ fit. If 2♥ bidder has spades, he happily corrects back to 4♠.. if he had both minors, you found your fit too...

Ben

[scoob]

i had fun, but not without having the value of a prepared defense slapped in my face for both rounds

[hrothgar]

scoob, on Dec 14 2004, 05:45 PM, said:

i had fun, but not without having the value of a prepared defense slapped in my face for both rounds

Couple comments here:

1. In our 12 board match, Free and I hardly trotted out any of our "strange" stuff. We had no assumed fit preempts. We had no relay auctions. We had only had one transfer opening and that immediately transitioned into natural bidding. Most of the big swings boiled down to judgement.

Case in point. The biggest swing in the entire match was 15 IMPs. The auction started

(1♦) - P - (1♠) - P
(2♣) - ???

1♦ = 9-14 HCP and 4+♥,
1♠ = natural and forcing

Your partner bid 2♦ holding

♠ K7
♥ 9542
♦ Q7654
♣ Q8

2♦X went for 1100

In a similar fashion, the following auction occured during the second round:

(1♦) - P - (2♦) - P
(2♥) - P - (P) - X
(P) - 2NT - (P) - 3♣

1♦ = 9-14 HCP and 4+ ♥, 2♦ = unbalanced with 5+♦, non-forcing

3♣ doubled should have gone for a number but we let you off the hook.

I have few rules about bidding, but heres one of the basics: Its really dangerous to intervene in auctions where both opponents have shown values and denied a fit...

2. I readily admit that you weren't allowed much leeway over your nebulous club/strong Diamond openings bids. However, those are the breaks. In this day and age you aren't going to be allowed to have a constructive auction over your strong openings. You absolutely require good defenses that can be applied to any one of a variety of different overcall structures.

[Free]

Imo, if you want to defend against strong openings, you should intervene with NF bids, and don't always give away a cuebid. After a strong ♣ opening, Dbl and 1♦ give away bidding space, so it's absolutely USELESS to use these bids for destructive purposes.

My defense:

pass = I'm too afraid to bid
Dbl = strong, balanced hands
1♦ = strong, unbalanced hands
1♥ = 0-3♥, 4+♠
1♠ = 0-3♠ (to intervene without giving a cuebid)
1NT = 5+m or 44♥♠
2m = DONT
2M = 5+M
2NT = 55+m

This defense is simple and efficient: Dbl and 1♦ is strong, 1M is 0-3M, and 1NT and higher is the Meckwell defense vs strong NT.

You're free to intervene with whatever bid you want. You can describe ANY hand with 3 bids: 1♥, 1♠ and 1NT. The other bids can also be used whenever you feel like it's safe enough, or if you want to take a risk.
Every bid at 2-level is NF, which also doesn't give away too much rounds of bidding to opps. Even the 1-level bids are NF. As long as opps don't Dbl, why would we try to find a fit? And perhaps we already found it...

I'll try this defense against nebulous 1m openings (as an experiment) since it worked out quite nice the other night. The only thing I'm not sure about is if this 1♠ overcall is allowed, since it doens't show any 4+ card suit.

[scoob]

good points

and as i said, it was a learning experience. and the majority of the problems we had were dealing with the forcing pass in the second round, which we were completely unprepared for.

overall the experience was humbling to say the least. but i think we're both looking forward to doing it again if it's happening.

[inquiry]

scoob, on Dec 14 2004, 11:35 AM, said:

good points

and as i said, it was a learning experience. and the majority of the problems we had were dealing with the forcing pass in the second round, which we were completely unprepared for.

overall the experience was humbling to say the least. but i think we're both looking forward to doing it again if it's happening.

I don't think the match demonstrated the stregnth of "free's" methods versus your opening bids as much as it demonstrated the weakness of your preparation for non-standard bids. Let's deal with just a few....

On board 4 after Free's 1NT overcall showing a five card minor, or 4-4 or longer in the majors, you landed in 4♠ on a 4-4 fit. Free had 4♠, as you should deduce from the rest of the bidding. Playing double dummy, 4♠ is easy to make and would be huge win for your side if you managed it.

On board 3, your partner opens the big 1♦ bid. Richard overcalls 1NT on 2-3-5-3 with Kxxxx in diamonds.. the bidding continues.. 1♦-(1NT)-Pass-(2♦). where 2♦ was pass/correct and bid on a doubleton queen. If your partner makes a takeout double here, you holding JT9x of diamonds and the KJ of clubs will pass. The will lose 3♣, 3♦, 2♥ for down three doubled.. as it is your partner bid 2♠ and went down two.

Your partner's 2♦ bid on the auction richard pointed out was suicide.

ben

[david_c]

inquiry, on Dec 13 2004, 02:01 PM, said:

A method that FORCES you to overcall with 4333 and 3hcp with 1♥ (or 1♠) could lead to utter disaster, especially vul. I suspect since 6NT was cold then 1♥X or 1♠X or 2 any minor doubled would not be a big susccess....  down seven is a possibility and down six likely. Not vul 1400 to 1700.. and vulnerable? Don't get me started... :-)

Ben

Indeed, on that board they were about to go for at least 1400, but after the auction (1♣) - 1♥ - (X) - 1♠ - (X) - P, the East player (me) inexplicably decided to let them off the hook by bidding 3NT. I knew prefectly well that my parnter's double was for penalty, but I got twitchy. That board is going to be giving me nightmares for years to come ...

Anyway, I enjoyed the game very much, and it was a pleasure meeting you folks. I hope you manage to arrange something like that again, though I'd probably better stick to kibitzing in future

David (col3435)

[Antoine Fourrière]

I would prefer something like

DBL 44 or 43 in the majors
1♦ 3/4 hearts and a five-card minor
1♥ 3/4 spades and a five-card minor
1♠ 5 spades
1N 5 hearts without 3 spades
2♣ 5 hearts and 3/4 spades

It robs them of their cue-bid when you do not have a five-card major, but also gives your side more flexibility for a raise. They still have to consider playing in your 3/4 card major. And if you end up declaring, it will often be from advancer's undisclosed hand.

[hrothgar]

scoob, on Dec 14 2004, 06:35 PM, said:

good points

and as i said, it was a learning experience. and the majority of the problems we had were dealing with the forcing pass in the second round, which we were completely unprepared for.

One last comment

As I noted earlier in the thread, I think that its a mistake to expect the opponents to provide good defenses to their own methods. I very much prefer structures based on advanced pre-disclosure...

[EarlPurple]

I hope we can do it again. Be better prepared:

- over opponents opening methods and
- handling opponents intervention.

That is why I would like to see the systems posted here.

One of the pairs came in as substitute to replace one of the pairs who were scheduled to play, and that was perhaps part of the problem because they were unprepared for the match.

Our match was clashing with a Topflight Special featuring Zia Mahmood, which is why we did not attract as many spectators as we might have done. Hopefully next time...

[inquiry]

One can kibitz the match, even after it is over.. since it is there on myhands site. I was unable to attend (and if I could have, I would have kibitzed Zia... sorry guys, let's be truthful.... you would too... ).

So far, I have only looked at the table free and hgorthar played at. What this showed was that if you play a big club (or diamond) system, you need to discuss your treatment to deal with competition. The match was rather one sided, but I don't think it proved one system inferior or superior, not yet at least. I look forward to the next match, and hope to be able to watch it live rather than in replay...

[keylime]

I use this over strong club/diamond:

double = majors or minors
1D = hearts
1H = spades
1S = red or black suits
1NT = round or pointed suits
2x and higher = natural and preemptive.

[luke warm]

we presently play suction... have no idea what the 'best' is... and if this does happen again, i really hope we can be there

[inquiry]

I am going to start playing NTC with misho (it is his home grown system, available on Dan Neill's webpage). It is based upon a Romex type 1NT opening as the big hand. It uses 2C and 2D opening bids as DONT-like weak opening bids. We use transfer and transfer advances in competition and OUTSIDE of competition too.

Of course, if no one is interested in playing against this I will be glad to just watch you other guys.

Ben