[Fluffy]

♠A6543
♥A1098
♦K5
♣86

We are vul, they ain't, IMPs

(pass)- pass -( 3 ♣ )-pass
(pass)-double-(pass)-???

[rhm]

4♣

Rainer Herrmann

[Codo]

4♣, better to fail in 4 of the right major then in 3 of the wrong one...

[JLOGIC]

3S, my partner could not open the bidding and I have the worst number of clubs.

[the hog]

3S looks obvious.

[gszes]

give p as little as say

Qxxx Qxxx Axxx x and we seem to be huge favorites to make 4
of either major. I would bid 4c just to make sure we play our 44 fit
if p then bids 4d (presumably 33 in the majors) I will follow with 4s
but not be as happy.



4c

risk vs reward at IMPS seems to indicate we try to make game here.

At MP where strecthing for games is not the goal I can see
signing off in 3s and hoping p has a far less suitable reopening x

though how much less they can have and still reopen remains a question.

[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-14, 03:20, said:

3S, my partner could not open the bidding and I have the worst number of clubs.

These were my initial thoughts but then I started to reconsider:
Partner's balance must show both majors. Partner will never balance with more than 2 cards in clubs and with 2 cards red versus white he should have a maximum pass for his balance.

I tried a simulation (1000 deals):

I gave partner a minimum of 4 cards in each major.

If 2 clubs 10-11 HCP
If 1 club 8-10 HCP
If 0 clubs 7-9 HCP

RHO 6-7 clubs (no HCP range) and LHO limited to a maximum of 11 HCP.

4♠ made 618 times out of 1000 deals. Average number of tricks in spades were 9.8

I expect opponents to sacrifice some of the time, but not always getting it right when to do it.
So some of the time when you bid game and fail opponents will save for +300 or so.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

I'd bid 4♣, because I expect partner to have a singleton club nearly all the time.

[nigel_k]

gnasher, on 2012-June-14, 06:55, said:

I'd bid 4♣, because I expect partner to have a singleton club nearly all the time.

I tend to agree, but then opponents have ten clubs. Where I live, this auction with this hand could only happen if one or two clubs had fallen on the floor.

[FrancesHinden]

I also bid 4C, because I also think partner has a singleton club most of the time.
Playing random 3rd seat pre-empts, if you would open 3C at favourable with xx xx xxxx KQJxx then you have to be very careful about raising with 4-card support.

[JLOGIC]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-June-14, 14:22, said:

I also bid 4C, because I also think partner has a singleton club most of the time.
Playing random 3rd seat pre-empts, if you would open 3C at favourable with xx xx xxxx KQJxx then you have to be very careful about raising with 4-card support.

Why? You think RHO has a trap pass? If my partner has that hand and I have 4 clubs and a non oepning bid, I probably want to be preempting, since it will probably work (it's much harder for LHO to bid over 4C than balance over 3C, and RHO has already passed so unless hes trapping will not be bidding again). I invest an extra 50 to preempt them in a much more devastating way when they probably have a game, seems alright to me.

[gnasher]

Maybe our LHO has a quacky 4333 10-count. In fact, that's roughly what we expect him to have, isn't it?

Third-seat premepts are allowed to have defence. From his point of view, it might just be a partscore board and they might be about to play 3♣. It's rarely going to be automatic for a passed hand to balance at the three level, vulnerable.

Anyway, I'm going to rely on my partner. A balanced hand that is good enough to wade in at the three-level is good enough to open the bidding.

[jallerton]

Interesting.

Over a 1st seat pre-empt I'd expect partner to have (at least) a doubleton club most of the time because of the lack of a 4♣ bid.

Now partner has made a passed hand double, I expect partner to have a singleton club, ergo clubs is most likely to be a 7-3 fit for the opponents.

[Fluffy]

This hand made me very happy, because when I passed 3♣ I though to myself, I will bid 4♣ over double I think. Next thing I knew was that the bidding tray took what seemed to me forever (partner said he was just asing questions abou 3♣ style and didn't really think much after all) to come back with the double. Now 4♣ looked very bad but bidding something other than 4♣ would be absurd.

PArtner had

♠KJx
♥QJxx
♦Axxx
♣xx

all 3-2 and one finese onside run 10 tricks home. opener had ♠xxx ♥xx ♦J10x ♣AQJ10x, LHO didn't bid at all with Q-K-Q-K and 4 clubs.

[Fluffy]

Another question that maybe belongs to laws forum.

If my partner doubled instntly, it would be normal for east to hold the tray, for whatever time to avoid UI. Now because east holding the tray too long I might restrict my own LA to some UI that in fact doesn't exist, is there something to do about it?

[kenrexford]

The problem with this is that many would open that hand and others where game makes.

[lalldonn]

I would force to game 100% and think it's a mistake not to, although I don't agree with all the comments of other people who would force to game. We are vul at imps and game could easily be good. It's true opening style comes into it but I'm just assuming what I consider normal, i.e. not playing precision or something where I would think opening a 4441 10 count would be normal.

[gnasher]

Fluffy, on 2012-June-14, 15:35, said:

Another question that maybe belongs to laws forum.

If my partner doubled instntly, it would be normal for east to hold the tray, for whatever time to avoid UI. Now because east holding the tray too long I might restrict my own LA to some UI that in fact doesn't exist, is there something to do about it?

East is allowed to delay it long enough to make a normal pause, but not to slow it down so much as to make it seem out of tempo. If he does do that, you're entitled to redress under Law 73;
"players should be particularly careful when variations [in tempo] may work to the benefit of their side"
"A player may not attempt to mislead an opponent by ... the haste or hesitancy of a call or play"
"if the Director determines that an innocent player has drawn a false inference from a remark, manner, tempo, or the like, of an opponent who has no demonstrable bridge reason for the action, and who could have known, at the time of the action, that the action could work to his benefit, the Director shall award an adjusted score"

Look at appeal 22 here:
http://www.bridgefed...bc_appeals.html
That was exactly the scenario you're talking about.

[JLOGIC]

Obv if you will not reopen with 2 small clubs then 4C is "100 % correct." I question that statement and statements like if partner can balance with a doubleton club he should open. I am routinely going to reopen with (443)2 and a max passed hand, they are a white red passed hand opposite a preempt and my hand is limited, this is not a hugely dangerous situation and partner was forced to pass 3C with some values and a long suit if his hand was not that good.

I would happily reopen with KQxx Kxxx Qxx xx and would think it was strange not to, although apprently I'm the strange one. I would reopen lighter than that if I had an ace.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on 2012-June-14, 15:16, said:

Maybe our LHO has a quacky 4333 10-count. In fact, that's roughly what we expect him to have, isn't it?

My point was that Frances had it backwards imo, you don't fail to raise a 3rd seat white preempt with 4 trumps ebcause partner might have KQJxx and out. I agree with jallerton, if partner has a stiff club they are extremely likely to be 7-3, it is a specific hand that would not raise wtih 4 clubs. 7-3 is of course very possible.

I am surprised by your fear of reopening over 3C as a passed hand. The values are probably about evenly split, and your hand is limited, and you can play any suit at the 3 level. There is some chance you have a 10 card fit and a reasonable chance you have a 9 card fit. If they are down maybe partner has a pass and maybe they will go down many. It seems like mainly a question of whether or not it is more likely to be a double partscore swing, or both 3 level contracts going down 1. But getting doubled is probably less likely than getting a penalty or making a game even if both are unlikely. If I have 2 small clubs and some values as a passed hand I am going to balance.