[the hog]

Hand from the weekend, Imps. v vs not

(1S) P (4S) ?

8
AK942
AKJ92
42

4S is described as "based on distribution". Your move....

[Free]

4NT. If partner bids 5♣ I'll bid 5♦ to show him I have ♥-♦. I don't like to Dbl, cause it wouldn't be the first time a K or both AK of a suit are ruffed because of the "distribution"...

[whereagles]

I'm on a guess, and I guess 4NT, lol.

[Chamaco]

If pard has nothing, either offering to defend doubled or forcing a 5-level bid will be a disaster. Yet, we shall assume here that pard has something useful, but where ?

If pard can contribute something we could
- make 5D/H or go down 1 in an unexpensive sac (despite vuln situation)
- set them doubled in 4 spades

This raises the question: 4NT or double (I play X as t/o here) ?

IMO, doubling (for takeout) should be based on more hcp (17/18, preferably scattered), or, with the given strength, have a better tolerance for clubs.

4NT is for more distributional hands, generally 2-suiters and that's what I got, with no wasted values: a 4.5 losers hand with two excellent suits.
So I am going to 4NT and correct to diamonds my pard's club bid.

[luke warm]

i agree, 4nt

[inquiry]

My four notrump is two suit takeout. However, here I will double. If at this vul, partner wants to defend this hand this will be ok, and probably best. If partner bids 5C over doible, I can bid 5♦, pass/correct. Partner can see the vulnerabilty and wil lknow I am ready for him to bid at the five level. I don't expect my choice will be popular. Reverse the minors, and I will bid 4NT.

[helene_t]

I estimate 19 total tricks which means that a sacrifice against a makeable 4♠ is probably too expensive, and that it may be a board where nobody can make anything. However, this is IMPs and there may be a positive compensation vis-a-vis LOTT because of a double fit. Therefore I bid 4NT.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 12:37 PM, said:

My four notrump is two suit takeout. However, here I will double. If at this vul, partner wants to defend this hand this will be ok, and probably best.
-- cut --

The problem with the t/o doubl is that if pard is broke, he will pass (rather than scramble at 5 level), since the t/o dbl should promise some 17/18 hcp.

Our hand is very "pure here", and 4SX is not sure to be a good bargain...

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Nov 8 2004, 10:13 AM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 12:37 PM, said:

My four notrump is two suit takeout. However, here I will double. If at this vul, partner wants to defend this hand this will be ok, and probably best.
-- cut --

The problem with the t/o doubl is that if pard is broke, he will pass (rather than scramble at 5 level), since the t/o dbl should promise some 17/18 hcp.

Our hand is very "pure here", and 4SX is not sure to be a good bargain...

The problem with 4NT is that if partner is broke, at this vul, 5 of a red suit is not going to be a bargain for you. Especially if partner has a black hand and is broke. Such is the life of a bridge player....

Just because RHO is probably weak (from description), doesn't mean left hand oppoenent doesn't have considerable extra. 4NT will get you to five of a red suit (since you will pull 5C), DBL will most likely get you to five of a red suit, but gives you a chance to play 4Sx. And when you do, it rates to be a much better spot. A broke partner with some distribution will bid anyway. Who knows, you may take 2H, 1H ruff and a diamond if partner is 3-1-3-6 and no points, for instance, where 5D loses 1S, 2C, 1S off the top, doubled.

Just because your 4NT means, I have a two suiter, bid one, doesn't mean you have to use it if DBL is for takeout.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 02:16 PM, said:

The problem with 4NT is that if partner is broke, at this vul, 5 of a red suit is not going to be a bargain for you.  Especially if partner has a black hand and is broke.  Such is the life of a bridge player....

Totally agree with you Ben, I am simply ready to gamble that it is more likely pard holds something useful after they bid and raise "distributionally" at the 4 level :-)

I expect we won't be more than 1 off, say doubled (-200).
My estimated worse case scenario is a phantom sac where they are also 1 off, say doubled (100), for a -300 swing (if they are off more, probably we have game- LOTT etc etc)

I think the chances for a vulnerable game justify this, but this would not be the first notr the last time I misevaluate the hand...

Talking about LOTT: the fact that the hand is so "pure" AND has top controls, AND has a singleton in opps suit probably increases by at least 1 the no. of total tricks, so I wd estimate at least 20 total tricks or more.

As they say "When in doubt, bid one more", and I think here the potential benefits justify the risks :-)

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Nov 8 2004, 10:20 AM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 02:16 PM, said:

The problem with 4NT is that if partner is broke, at this vul, 5 of a red suit is not going to be a bargain for you.  Especially if partner has a black hand and is broke.  Such is the life of a bridge player....

Totally agree with you Ben, I am simply ready to gamble that it is more likely pard holds something useful after they bid and raise "distributionally" at the 4 level :-)

I expect we won't be more than 1 off, say doubled (-200).
My estimated worse case scenario is a phantom sac where they are also 1 off, say doubled (100), for a -300 swing (if they are off more, probably we have game- LOTT etc etc)

I think the chances for a vulnerable game justify this, but this would not be the first notr the last time I misevaluate the hand...

Talking about LOTT: the fact that the hand is so "pure" AND has top controls, AND has a singleton in opps suit probably increases by at least 1 the no. of total tricks, so I wd estimate at least 20 total tricks or more.

As they say "When in doubt, bid one more", and I think here the potential benefits justify the risks :-)

I double is for takeout, you are not giving up on chances of a vulnerable game. Partner sees the vulnerability and will be willing to go on with nearly all suitable hands.

IF your double of 4♠ is penalty, then of course, you will bid 4NT. But, if your follow Robson/Segal style of all non-conventional doubles being takout until a fit is found, double here gives you a second chance to win. Give me a spade void and a sixth-diamond, that would swing me to bidding 4NT.. for two reasaon... one partner will play me for 1444 type hand if making a LOTT based passed when weak, a void might be too much for him to factor in. Two, the void give me one less quick loser, and the extra diamond gives me one more long winner.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 02:41 PM, said:

I double is for takeout, you are not giving up on chances of a vulnerable game. Partner sees the vulnerability and will be willing to go on with nearly all suitable hands.

IF your double of 4♠ is penalty, then of course, you will bid 4NT. But, if your follow Robson/Segal style of all non-conventional doubles being takout until a fit is found, double here gives you a second chance to win.

Sure, here I play à la Robson Segal, but I disagree on the hand evaluation here, because:

1) pard will hardly look for a red suit if he has support
2) 15 hcp is not enough for a 4 level takeout. We are short a K for that. This is very important. T/o at 4 level must have honor content amounting to a GOOD reverse, not distributional. Pard, with a yarborough, must be able to pas confidently that you can set them on your own (I took this concept from Lawrence, I do not remember R-S approach);
3) The hand is offensively oriented
4) 4NT shows specifically a 2-suiter and that's what we got

Of all of the above, 2) is the most important.
Pard is likely to leave the double in with most (close-)yarboroughs, playing us for more hcp content.
In this case they'll score more than us being 2 off doubled.

The same will happen even if they hold any 7 hcp which may make our hand a laydown slam (admittedly close to unbiddable at this stage)

This risk balances by far, IMO, the risk of overbid at the 5-level.

[whereagles]

I don't know... double prevents you from going overboard, but on the other hand you need sooo little in pard to make 5D/H. For instance xx Qxx xxxx Kxx might already be enough!

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Nov 8 2004, 10:50 AM, said:

I don't know... double prevents you from going overboard, but on the other hand you need sooo little in pard to make 5D/H. For instance xx Qxx xxxx Kxx might already be enough!

And my partner will bid with this.. they have 10 trumps, and my double was takeout. 4Sx will never get you rich. This hand, if truely only 2S's, will bid 4NT over double for me to pick the suit - (only 12 cards in your example), and we get to 5D.

[jillybean]

4nt here is always showing a strong 2 suiter ? (and has nothing to do with blackwood )

Is this also used after the opps bid at the 3 level? Below that you'd be able to use natural bids or michaels/U2nt

tyia
jillybean

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 02:55 PM, said:

This hand, if truely only 2S's, will bid 4NT over double for me to pick the suit - (only 12 cards in  your example), and we get to 5D.

I disagree.
4 level doubles should promise a GOOD 16/17+ and, even if t/o in nature, will mostly be left in by pard's which do not see a clear fit, especially if pard is weak and balanced, no matter how many spades.
they will go for a sure plus rather than an unsafe 5-level contract.
this is because the double is supposed to be (semibalanced) whether the 2-suiters go via 4NT.

[whereagles]

Sorry, I meant xx Qxx xxxx Kxxx. Are you sure pard will bid on this? To bid here is only good if total tricks split 11-7 for our side. Any other split and you go from plus to minus. So why not pass and lead a trump?

[pclayton]

Again - a lot of this is partnership agreement. My doubles of 4♠ are PENALTY - but pard is allowed to pull with a lot of shape and ODR. 4N (over 4♠) is like a takeout double; generally 3-suited.

Frankly, I've never considered what a double and then a pull to 5♦ looks like. I'm not convinced its a 2 suiter - I can see the call made on a hand like: Ax, AKx, AQxxxx, Kx. Going to discuss it with my pard today.

Over a 4♥ opening; 4N is absolutely a 2 suiter.

I think I'll double; if a pull to 5♦ shows the 2 suiter I'll do that. If it shows my hand above, I'll sit for 5♣, expecting to play a 6-2 fit, with my spade shortness and red honors to take some tricks.

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Nov 8 2004, 10:48 AM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 02:41 PM, said:

I double is for takeout, you are not giving up on chances of a vulnerable game. Partner sees the vulnerability and will be willing to go on with nearly all suitable hands.

IF your double of 4♠ is penalty, then of course, you will bid 4NT. But, if your follow Robson/Segal style of all non-conventional doubles being takout until a fit is found, double here gives you a second chance to win.

Sure, here I play à la Robson Segal, but I disagree on the hand evaluation here, because:

1) pard will hardly look for a red suit if he has support
2) 15 hcp is not enough for a 4 level takeout. We are short a K for that. This is very important. T/o at 4 level must have honor content amounting to a GOOD reverse, not distributional. Pard, with a yarborough, must be able to pas confidently that you can set them on your own (I took this concept from Lawrence, I do not remember R-S approach);
3) The hand is offensively oriented
4) 4NT shows specifically a 2-suiter and that's what we got

Of all of the above, 2) is the most important.
Pard is likely to leave the double in with most (close-)yarboroughs, playing us for more hcp content.
In this case they'll score more than us being 2 off doubled.

The same will happen even if they hold any 7 hcp which may make our hand a laydown slam (admittedly close to unbiddable at this stage)

This risk balances by far, IMO, the risk of overbid at the 5-level.

This is what makes bridge so interesting. We both have 4NT as two suit takeout, we both have double as takeout, and yet we see this hand quite differently. Just because you have a club in your bag, doesn't mean you have to use it.

You are afraid of double because partner might leave in with a yarboroughs, and I am afraid of 4NT because parnter might have a yarborough. Let's examine the type of yarboroughs partner might have.

Any with three spades, he will likely leave in, unless he is 4-4 it two other suits, or long in one suit (say clubs). So we risk here 4Sx making (if partner has three spades, lets assume just making, we get two aces and a king, nothing else). This is 590 for them. Against this, 5Dx or 5Hx, will lose 2C, 1S for sure (that is -200 already), and likely heart or a diamond, maybe both. That is -500. So you the risk zone here when it goes sour is -590 versus -200 up. what if your partner, for instance, is... xxx x xx Jxxxxxx. On a trump lead against 5Dx, it is not impossible that you can lose 2D, 2H, 2C, and 1S. Now instead of -200 or -500, you are minus 1400. To make matters worse, you could have scored 2H, and 2D for +100 in 4Sx.

I can not say what the contract is, but I can say, that over 4S, the most flexibile bid is double. And, you are no worse off if partner bids 5C than you were if you bid 4NT.

[inquiry]

jillybean2, on Nov 8 2004, 10:59 AM, said:

4nt here is always showing a strong 2 suiter ? (and has nothing to do with blackwood )

Is this also used after the opps bid at the 3 level? Below that you'd be able to use natural bids or michaels/U2nt

tyia
jillybean

Yes, 4NT here is always a two suited takeout.. MUCH. MUCH more valable use of this bid than asking for ACES.