[inquiry]

whereagles, on Nov 8 2004, 11:01 AM, said:

Sorry, I meant xx Qxx xxxx Kxxx. Are you sure pard will bid on this? To bid here is only good if total tricks split 11-7 for our side. Any other split and you go from plus to minus. So why not pass and lead a trump?

Yes, my parnters will bid with this hand. In fact, my partners might be feeling a little worried about bidding only five, they would, but at this vul, they would be a little worried.

To Mauro. Takeout doubles, are for takeout. The higher the double, the more likely they are to be left in, but I don't stick hcp on the meaning of the double (like 16/17)... I stick a DESIRE to hear partner bid. AT imps, at this VUL, (we are and they are not), the desire to hear partner bid when I double is very strong. No one is going to get rich defending 4Sx at this vul. I am asking partner to bid at the five level unless his hand is suited to defend. With xxx xxxx xxx xxx I am not entirely sure what he will do.. .bid or pass, is up in the air. If he passes, we still have a shot at four tricks, if red suits behave. But with any reason to bid, I expect him to bid. He will never pass with a yarborough and a signleton or doubleton spade. If he does, we will have a discussion after the session on what to do on these hands.

To Phil, If you play the double as penalty, then when you pull five clubs, it can't mean two suiter. But if you play double as penatly, and your partner bids 5C, let him play it. You have two card support, a spade ruffing value, and good side controls. After all, he bid 5♣ when you a) promised spades you don't have, and b.) never promised club support.

Now to see what Ron had in mind.... :-)

Ben

[whereagles]

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 04:20 PM, said:

whereagles, on Nov 8 2004, 11:01 AM, said:

Sorry, I meant xx Qxx xxxx Kxxx. Are you sure pard will bid on this? To bid here is only good if total tricks split 11-7 for our side. Any other split and you go from plus to minus. So why not pass and lead a trump?

Yes, my parnters will bid with this hand. In fact, my partners might be feeling a little worried about bidding only five, they would, but at this vul, they would be a little worried.

Well... It might be worth to run a simulation to see if 4NT works better than double.

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Nov 7 2004, 11:41 PM, said:

Hand from the weekend, Imps. v vs not

(1S) P (4S) ?

8
AK942
AKJ92
42

4S is described as "based on distribution". Your move....

I double.

Let's suppose partner has the worst hand possible- a 3334 Yarborough.

If the opponents don't have a singleton, 4 spades is going down. If they do have a singleton, 4 spades is going to make. However, now we have 1 spade loser, one heart, one diamond, two clubs, and one extra loser in whichever red suit ended up being 4-1. That's down 4.

They were going to make 420 if I passed. They make 570 if I X'd, or 1100 if my partner bids on.

So I think the argument that my partner will pass the X if he has nothing is wrong. If he passes, they get an extra 170 or, if they're really lucky, 270. If my partner runs, they're getting an extra 700 or, if we're really lucky, a mere 400. This isn't close.

Reverse the vulnerability, and now I think 4NT is right. Making 4SX by them vs. down 4 for you is a mere 50 points- you can afford that chance.

I think the total tricks here is probably 18. The total trumps is 19, but the odds of Qxx(x) with LHO across a singleton in a red suit seem high to me given the bidding. That's worth a trick on defense, and nothing on offense. And with total tricks of 18, at this vulnerability, it's only right to bid on if you expect to make.

I don't.

[PriorKnowledge]

Agree with others, 4N, correcting 5C to 5D.

X at this level is ALWAYS offensive, not penalty. If by some fluke, you have a spade stack, you will have to play the hand undoubled.

4N is generally takeout over pre-empts. Over a 3-level preempt, if you want to use blackwood, you have to dbl first. Over a 4-level preempt, 4N is takeout.

The only time 4N is blackwood without a suit being established is a 4N opening bid and a 4N response to 1-of-a-suit opening bid.

[mike777]

Trying to relearn the law again before reading "I fought the law"

I bid 4nt here.

assuming partner is 2=3=4=4 with pure suits and a double fit.... maybe 21 total tricks? ....at least 20 total tricks?

[inquiry]

Ok we will wait for Ron's reply, but you 4NT bidders, don't whine to me when you gof for 1100 or 1400. And if partner has 1 or 2 Spades, even with yarbough, he has to be bid over my 4Sx, so if he has some 2-4-4-3 hand with two spades, he will bid on. Exception: with no points and side singleton, he can gamble a pass with no points.... give him a side singleton (not in spades) and some points, he must bid (again, without at least three spades).

For the record..this maybe the first time JT and I have agreed... so now I am worried about my choice... :-) (just kidding JT, you have it right).

Ben

[junyi_zhu]

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 06:39 PM, said:

Ok we will wait for Ron's reply, but you 4NT bidders, don't whine to me when you gof for 1100 or 1400. And if partner has 1 or 2 Spades, even with yarbough, he has to be bid over my 4Sx, so if he has some 2-4-4-3 hand with two spades, he will bid on. Exception: with no points and side singleton, he can gamble a pass with no points.... give him a side singleton (not in spades) and some points, he must bid (again, without at least three spades).

For the record..this maybe the first time JT and I have agreed... so now I am worried about my choice... :-) (just kidding JT, you have it right).

Ben

This is not playable if you hold a strong balanced hand:
SAx HAKxx DAQx Cxxxx
you claimed that your partner has to bid with 2-3-4-4 shape, ok, let me give your partner a decent 7 HCP hand without HCP wastage: Sxx HQxx DJxxx CKJxx, you think you can make 5C or want to play 5C?

[jtfanclub]

junyi_zhu, on Nov 8 2004, 02:44 PM, said:

This is not playable if you hold a strong balanced hand:
SAx HAKxx DAQx Cxxxx
you claimed that your partner has to bid with 2-3-4-4 shape, ok, let me give your partner a decent 7 HCP hand without HCP wastage: Sxx HQxx DJxxx CKJxx, you think you can make 5C or want to play 5C?

Of course not...luckily, clubs is the lowest ranking suit, so you can bid 5 diamonds.
Otherwise, you'd have to bid 5 hearts.

[the hog]

This has morphed into an extremely interesting thread. Our full auction was

(1S) P (4S) 4N
(P) 5C (5S) X

So I guess I was lucky on the board. The whole hand

---

I was wondering about the respective merits of X vs 4NT

[pclayton]

The_Hog, on Nov 8 2004, 01:40 PM, said:

This has morphed into an extremely interesting thread. Our full auction was

(1S) P (4S) 4N
(P) 5C (5S) X

So I guess I was lucky on the board. The whole hand

---

I was wondering about the respective merits of X vs 4NT

Well, the 5♠ call is unconscionable.

There is a psychological aspect to 4N that the doublers (me included) ignore. At this vulnerability, frequently the opponents will still sac - as these opponents did. Very difficult for either side to gauge with any amount of confidence.

A bit unlucky on the total tricks. EW make 9 and NS make only 8 on what should be 19 TT.

Reading these posts, I'm wondering if my approach to the direct 4N call is correct. I've played it as a takeout double over 4♠ as long as I can remember. But from a total tricks perspective, as long as we are committing to a high level, an unknown 5+-5+ seems to make more sense. And lump the 1444's into the quasi-penalty double. Any thoughts?

[inquiry]

5♠ is a stinker no matter what... I think double or 4NT will likely end up in the same spot, because I expect partner to bid with this hand (4NT over double, not to play, but pick a spot). So we lose 1S, 2C, 1H for 500 away in a phanthom... maybe a clever partner with wasted king of spades and no quick tricks will ignore his fit and pass, at this vul I really doubt it however.

To Phil, don't lump 4NT into quasi penalty double, use double for takeout.

[pclayton]

No - Ben; I'm thinking about 4N being a 2 suiter and double as penalty / 3 suited.

[jtfanclub]

Just because I can...

Quote

A bit unlucky on the total tricks. EW make 9 and NS make only 8 on what should be 19 TT.

As I pointed out, there are nineteen total trumps, but the bidding has already told you that it's likely to be fewer than 19 total tricks. It's not luck, it's evaluation.

The Law is a nice rule, but you can't apply it mindlessly.

[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Nov 8 2004, 09:48 PM, said:

Reading these posts, I'm wondering if my approach to the direct 4N call is correct. I've played it as a takeout double over 4♠ as long as I can remember. But from a total tricks perspective, as long as we are committing to a high level, an unknown 5+-5+ seems to make more sense. And lump the 1444's into the quasi-penalty double. Any thoughts?

amongst others, this is the approach suggested by Lawrence in "The complete book on t/o double".

Basically 4N is 2 suiter and X is cooperative, assuming that broke pards will leave the double quite often rather than bid at the 5 level.

[EricK]

pclayton, on Nov 8 2004, 11:10 PM, said:

No - Ben; I'm thinking about 4N being a 2 suiter and double as penalty / 3 suited.

I believe that "standard" is 4NT is two suited and X is take-out. In other words, X looks like a standard double of 1♠ only much stronger.

However, becuase the take out doubler is likely to have on average only 4 cards in each suit, and because the take out doubler is likely to have enough high card strength to defeat 4♠ a lot of the time, the "take out" double is often left in for penalties.

Note that 4NT as two suited also applies to the partner of the take out doubler. So (1♠) P (4♠) X (P) 4NT would ideally show some 5-5 hand. This avoids playing in a 5-3 fit when there is a 5-4 (or even 5-5) available.

Eric

[EarlPurple]

1♠ pass 4♠ Dbl
pass 4NT

should show 2 places to play, but I don't know about 5-5.

Of course, there is another option of what 4NT could be in the auction 1♠ pass 4♠ 4NT - it could be to play. You might have:

♠AQ ♥ x ♦ Qxx ♣ AKQJxxx

and you hope to get a spade lead and hope partner covers the red suits (especially hearts) and can provide you another trick (2 more if a red suit is led).

Or even you might have:

♠ Kx ♥ Ax ♦ Ax ♣ AKQJxxx

10 cold tricks on a spade lead even if partner has a yarborough. On a red-suit lead, you hope partner has one red king for you (or QJ in the red suit they lead).

Now Dbl would be used to cover 2-suiters.

[whereagles]

Interesting to see 4NT gets the shaft here. Perhaps I should be more careful in the future with defensive hands.

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Nov 9 2004, 08:29 AM, said:

Interesting to see 4NT gets the shaft here. Perhaps I should be more careful in the future with defensive hands.

It is a matter or experience... chalk this one up...

With a mixed 5-5 hand (offensive and defensive) and a singleton in their suit, you have to consider double or 4NT.

If you held the same hand but with clubs and hearts, you should bid 4NT. The reason being if parnter bids 5♦ over a double, you can't back up to 5♣ when clubs is the right strain. Same is true when you are 5-5 in the minors, bid 4NT because if partner bids 5♥ over the double, you can't back up. But with the master off-suits, you can use a double if the hand has both offensive and defensive characteristics.

NOTE, if your double isn't "takeout", you have to use 4NT with all of these hands.

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Nov 9 2004, 08:54 AM, said:

NOTE, if your double isn't "takeout", you have to use 4NT with all of these hands.

Quintuple ARRRGH.

Some things seem so obvious to me that I can't believe people are missing it. Then I check some sample hands, and the right answer, and they agree with me. The only conclusion I can get is that people are pontificating rather than considering the problem

Look. This is a five loser hand. It was 4.5 until you heard that 4♠ was distributional, then it went back up to 5, because a nine card fit without the queen is no longer odds-on to have no losers.

You also have three defensive tricks, assuming one of your kings is getting ruffed.

You need ONE defensive trick from your partner to set four spades.

You need THREE winners from your partner to make 5 of something.

Note that, given the bidding, your partner is a lot more likely to have defensive tricks than winners. In the actual hand, your partner has two defensive tricks but one winner. That means both 4♠ and 5♥ are going down 2.

At this vulnerability, it makes no sense to bid takeout for a sacrifice. You need to make. Try making a few random hands, and see if you're going to make. You may be surprised.

Doesn't matter if the X is 'takeout' or penalty. You need to X.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot:

Quote

With a mixed 5-5 hand (offensive and defensive) and a singleton in their suit, you have to consider double or 4NT.

They have a 9-11 card fit. And while a doubleton in their suit is even with a singleton (worse if they have a 9 card fit, better if they have a 10+ card fit), all of the other possibilities (0, 3, or 4) are far stronger on both offense and defense.

You have no slow developing tricks, nothing that's going to go away on the opponent's long suit, nothing that's finessable that maybe you can trap North into leading. 5 losers, three quick defensive tricks- that should scream defense to you. Not mixed.

Seriously, try a few hands. I think you'll find this hand is much worse offensively than you think.

[whereagles]

inquiry, on Nov 9 2004, 02:54 PM, said:

whereagles, on Nov 9 2004, 08:29 AM, said:

Interesting to see 4NT gets the shaft here. Perhaps I should be more careful in the future with defensive hands.

It is a matter or experience... chalk this one up...

Perhaps I was influenced by this hand: it was a live national tournament and I was directing. NV vs V a player held something like (can't remember exactly the cards)

--
xxx
AKJTx
AKxxx

Player LHO pard RHO
1D.....1S....pass*..4S
5C....pass..pass....5S
(all pass)

*hesitation.

The contract drifted 1 off. I was summoned by the spade side who argued the hesitation might have induced the 5C bid. I didn't find the 5C bid to be "automatic", so I asked a few players around what they would do (without telling them of the hesitation, of course!). Much to my surprise, most people bid 5C without any contemplation. I ruled table score stands.

Interestingly enough, 5C is actually makes (pard had hesitated between double and pass on xx KTxx Qxxx Qxx). Since personally I was undecided between pass and 5C, this "experience" induced me into a more attacking game. Now I see the other side of the story, and I can think of both things when it happens at my table