[Hanoi5]

I recently asked what you would do with this hand:

Both red, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠---
♥KQ9xxx
♦A87xx
♣xx

And I received the expected answers; yes and no, one and three. Not for novices. Not experts from certain countries. Etc.

Our dealing program must be a little off since a week or two afterwards came this:

Red vs white, imp pairs, RHO passes and you hold:

♠xx
♥KQ8765
♦KJ8xx
♣---

Is this the same as the other? I don't like the fact that I hold no ace but I'm not opening weak. If you opened the previous one, would you open this one, too?

Anyway, on Wednesday this other came up:

Both white, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠AJT986
♥KT864
♦97
♣---

Is this one taking it too far? The thing is you hold both Majors and if you think as I do that it isn't worth the first bid, how do you plan to get to slam when partner opens 1♣ with:

♠Qx
♥AQ
♦AKQT
♣QTxxx

So, where is the line drawn? Do you guide yourself by the 'rule of 20' like a robot? Do you go by instinct? Do you use a formula or just go with the flow? And what tools would you use, if any, to make sure partner won't take you for a not-so-good hand after you passed during your first turn?

[Vampyr]

Look like normal opening bids to me.

[Cthulhu D]

NAE, but those two suiters all have good playing strength. Using LTC, 7 losers is an average opening hand, the last one has 6!

[frank0]

I have a little different opinion. I pass and hope to enter the auction with 2-suiter competitive convention.

It's fine if you open and partner has fit on one of your suit. Though pass will lead to the same result often.

You're usually in big trouble when partner either
(a)2 over 1 response in your short suit
(b)Double opp's bid at high level

[inquiry]

Both red, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠---
♥KQ9xxx
♦A87xx
♣xx

29 Zar points (Hcp = 9, controls = 3, long suit = 12, 2nd long suit-short suit = 5)

Red vs white, imp pairs, RHO passes and you hold:

♠xx
♥KQ8765
♦KJ8xx
♣---

28 Zar points..

Both white, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠AJT986
♥KT864
♦97
♣---

28 Zar points

Quote

So, where is the line drawn? Do you guide yourself by the 'rule of 20' like a robot? Do you go by instinct? Do you use a formula or just go with the flow? And what tools would you use, if any, to make sure partner won't take you for a not-so-good hand after you passed during your first turn?

When in doubt consider going with zar points. I did pass one the other day with plenty of zar's I was 6-5 in the minors with kqt of diamonds and some random club honors, 28 zars planning on using unusual 2nt. lho then opened 1c and rho then bid 1h. I had to decide now to come in with diamonds or to go quietly. It would have been best to open 1D because we belonged in clubs... sigh....

[Vampyr]

Was trying to search for the recent thread on Zar points, which had a link to the explanation. I got that message that one or more of the search terms were under four characters. Can someone ask the people supplying the software if this can be changed?

[jogs]

All three examples are 6-5 in touching suits. Makes opening and rebidding two of the other suit easy.
Maybe if the two suits were diamonds/clubs some would not open. If non touching suits, the rebid isn't always so convenient.
Also 6-5 with all points in the two suits and good interiors generates lots of tricks. Don't need to waste brain marrow to calculate the precise count point in an arcane points system to know these hands should be opened.

[gnasher]

I'd open all three of them, I'd be happy about the two that have an ace and a bit nervous about the other one.

Quote

Was trying to search for the recent thread on Zar points, which had a link to the explanation. I got that message that one or more of the search terms were under four characters. Can someone ask the people supplying the software if this can be changed?

You can use Google to search these forums. Just put "site:www.bridgebase.com/forums" at the beginning of your search terms, for example "site:www.bridgebase.com/forums zar points"

[dake50]

So, where is the line drawn? Do you guide yourself by the 'rule of 20' like a robot? Do you go by instinct? Do you use a formula or just go with the flow? And what tools would you use, if any, to make sure partner won't take you for a not-so-good hand after you passed during your first turn?

***
Interesting contrast of theory.
Should a partnership invest in unraveling weak cases
in strong auctions after weak distributional openers?
Or unravel after distributional T/O convention next round?
Verses should opening standards be higher to ease slammy/game tries?
Which is more effort?
Which pays more? Light openers with tough slammy/game decisions
or sound openers with easier slam/game decisions?
Let alone doubling decisions?
Do light openers let opponents run amok undoubled? Too often?

[rhm]

Hanoi5, on 2012-April-13, 22:08, said:

I recently asked what you would do with this hand:

Both red, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠---
♥KQ9xxx
♦A87xx
♣xx

And I received the expected answers; yes and no, one and three. Not for novices. Not experts from certain countries. Etc.

Our dealing program must be a little off since a week or two afterwards came this:

Red vs white, imp pairs, RHO passes and you hold:

♠xx
♥KQ8765
♦KJ8xx
♣---

Is this the same as the other? I don't like the fact that I hold no ace but I'm not opening weak. If you opened the previous one, would you open this one, too?

Anyway, on Wednesday this other came up:

Both white, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠AJT986
♥KT864
♦97
♣---

Is this one taking it too far? The thing is you hold both Majors and if you think as I do that it isn't worth the first bid, how do you plan to get to slam when partner opens 1♣ with:

♠Qx
♥AQ
♦AKQT
♣QTxxx

So, where is the line drawn? Do you guide yourself by the 'rule of 20' like a robot? Do you go by instinct? Do you use a formula or just go with the flow? And what tools would you use, if any, to make sure partner won't take you for a not-so-good hand after you passed during your first turn?

First it is a matter of judgment and hand evaluation.
If you ask me, which of the three mentioned hands is strongest, I would put the last one first and the second one last. I do not care for ZAR points.
I consider the last hand about a point stronger than the second hand. It's potential is also better.
I often pass balanced or semi-balanced hands, which other open, but I am aggressive when it comes to hands with a void, in particular when I have a long suit in the majors.
I would open all 3 hands, but the second one with misgivings. It hits my lower limit. It is by far the most dangerous one to open and I would not quarrel with any one, who advocates pass on the second hand.
Opening such hands hands can easily backfire if partner has a mild misfit. You will probably get too high.
But the a priory chances for an eight or nine card fit with those hands is excellent.
I do not subscribe to the theory of many that you can describe these hand and their strength better after passing first and with less risk.
It is not primarily a matter whether you have some nice overcalling conventions for describing two-suiters.
What many overlook is that timing is as important an aspect in bidding as in the play of the hand.
All of these hands could be deals where both sides can make game. Coming in first can easily shut out the other side.

Rainer Herrmann

[DrMunk]

Hanoi5, on 2012-April-13, 22:08, said:

I recently asked what you would do with this hand:

Both red, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠---
♥KQ9xxx
♦A87xx
♣xx

And I received the expected answers; yes and no, one and three. Not for novices. Not experts from certain countries. Etc.

Our dealing program must be a little off since a week or two afterwards came this:

Red vs white, imp pairs, RHO passes and you hold:

♠xx
♥KQ8765
♦KJ8xx
♣---

Is this the same as the other? I don't like the fact that I hold no ace but I'm not opening weak. If you opened the previous one, would you open this one, too?

Anyway, on Wednesday this other came up:

Both white, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

♠AJT986
♥KT864
♦97
♣---

Is this one taking it too far? The thing is you hold both Majors and if you think as I do that it isn't worth the first bid, how do you plan to get to slam when partner opens 1♣ with:

♠Qx
♥AQ
♦AKQT
♣QTxxx

So, where is the line drawn? Do you guide yourself by the 'rule of 20' like a robot? Do you go by instinct? Do you use a formula or just go with the flow? And what tools would you use, if any, to make sure partner won't take you for a not-so-good hand after you passed during your first turn?

IMO all hands should be opened. It does not look close to me, with strong suits, and no rebid problems. Only hand that is somewhat worring is the one without aces.

[mikeh]

I would open the 1st and 3rd hands (void KQ9xxx A87xx xx, and AJ10986 K10864 97 void) but nor the middle one (xx KQ8765 KJ8xx void)

I don't like robotic rules and strongly dislike the rule of 20. The good points of the rule of 20 are all contained in other metrics that I do keep in mind, while the bad points require so much fudging of the rule that it loses the sole attraction it has....simplicity.

Since hand evaluation is, imo, a complex process, no attempt to come up with a simple mechanical rule (including, with all respect, zar points) is ever going to be reliable other than on those subsets of hands that the developers of the metric offer as evidence of how wonderful their idea is.

Some reasons why I open the ones I do include, in no particular order:

1. controls: controls afford some measure of defence, and it is naive to assume that we don't need partner to be able to rely upon our having defence in addition to offence...we don't yet have a fit, nor any assurance that the hand belongs to us.

2. Texture: few metrics arithmetically account for internal suit texture, yet this can be very important when contracting for tricks without a lot of hcp.

3. Ease of rebid

4. Difficulties arising not only from opening but also from passing

5. Majors

6. LTC

Where any partnership draws the line is a matter for agreement. In the most detailed partnership I have ever had, we actually had several pages of notes on the subject, but I've never had any such explicit discussion with any other partner.