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Playing director ruling at his own table.

#1 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 03:45

Last night at the local club, we had a playing director who was very busy.

As a result of a few director calls, his table ran out of time. He assigned his table Average + for both sides.

Is that right?
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#2 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 04:51

View Postmr1303, on 2012-April-04, 03:45, said:

Last night at the local club, we had a playing director who was very busy.

As a result of a few director calls, his table ran out of time. He assigned his table Average + for both sides.

Is that right?

I wouldn't. A/A+ seems reasonable.
Gordon Rainsford
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 05:07

sounds reasonable. But of course, there should be a depute td who could rule in cases involving the td.
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#4 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 06:29

View Postgordontd, on 2012-April-04, 04:51, said:

View Postmr1303, on 2012-April-04, 03:45, said:

Last night at the local club, we had a playing director who was very busy.

As a result of a few director calls, his table ran out of time. He assigned his table Average + for both sides.

Is that right?


I wouldn't. A/A+ seems reasonable.

So the (playing) Director is "partly at fault" because of serving the club in addition to just playing bridge? :unsure:

I think A+/A+ is very reasonable.
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#5 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 06:59

I would award NP (Not Played = average)
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#6 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 07:54

View PostPrecisionL, on 2012-April-04, 06:59, said:

I would award NP (Not Played = average)

So you consider both the playing Director and his opponents who unfortunately met him in this particular round partly at fault for not being able to play the board?
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#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 09:06

NP=average? I believe NP results in the board being considered equal to the other boards a pair plays during the session. It could be average if they otherwise were 50% for the session.

Or, perhaps you really meant it becomes an average of that pair's results.
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 09:06

First off, "not played" is not "= average". Secondly, it's illegal to award NP in cases where a table did not play a board they were scheduled by the movement to play. Thirdly, a playing director should never, IMO, award his side A+ for a board missed because he was performing his directorial duties. I would say average at best, and I would prefer average minus (if he hadn't decided to both play and direct, this problem would not have arisen, so he is "directly at fault"). The playing director's opponents should always get A+, because they were "in no way at fault".
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 09:09

View Postpran, on 2012-April-04, 06:29, said:

So the (playing) Director is "partly at fault" because of serving the club in addition to just playing bridge? :unsure:

I think A+/A+ is very reasonable.


I understand the reluctance to instruct someone to give themselves A+, and I don't think I would do it myself, but I think this problem must be looked at realistically.

Not everyone directs, and while other club members might do their part in other ways, it is only really directing that affects one's performance during the session. In a once-a-week club with maybe 6 or 8 directors, even someone who shows up most of the time will find herself directing a substantial proportion of the time. I feel that it is fair to give this person a break.
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 09:14

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-04, 09:06, said:

(if he hadn't decided to both play and direct, this problem would not have arisen, so he is "directly at fault").


What do you mean "decided" to both play and direct? You make it sound as if it were selfish to offer to serve the club when you might well prefer to concentrate on your own game. If directors were required to be non-playing, you would get no volunteers. Then how would the game run? Perhaps the club should take on the extra expense of hiring non-playing directors for pay?

Honestly.
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#11 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 09:21

I considered "volunteered" but then figured somebody would say "but he was asked to do it!" I guess I can't win. :(
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#12 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 10:58

If I (as a paid TD) play and direct to fill in the movement, and I don't get to a board because my TD duties come first, I award A/A+. A+ both ways is probably correct, but I'm an employee of the bridge club and my job is to make the game run well and award masterpoints to the paying punters. If I'm that concerned about my own game that I have to award myself A+, I'm not doing my job.

If I'm asked to TD this game I intend to be playing at, *especially* if it's not a paid position, then you bet I'm "Not at all at fault" for not being able to play that board. I'm already playing at a handicap.

If I'm playing in a game that I run because I want the game to run, then I choose which way it goes. But those games are almost certainly not sanctioned games, so the "award masterpoints to the paying customers" part doesn't apply as much.
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#13 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 12:06

At our club, whether the director plays or not depends on how many players show up. Not everyone shows up with a partner, we have quite a few singles. If there are an even number of singles, we pair them up and then I play with my regular partner. If there are an odd number, my partner plays with one of them (he's very accomodating) and I just direct.

#14 User is offline   mjj29 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 15:52

I suspect there's a lot of difference between the ACBL and the EBU here. AIUI many (most?) of the ACBL clubs have a paid director (possibly the owner) who does not generally play, or does so only to fill in the movement. In this case I would agree with the A-/A+ or A/A+ options. In the EBU, certainly at the clubs I have played in, the club is run by the members, all of whom are volunteers. There are obviously larger clubs where this isn't the case, but I get the impression these are in the minority. Where everyone has turned up to play and the director is doing so as a volunteer on a rota in order to see the club run, I have much more sympathy with the A+/A+ or A/A+ views.

Being able to play quickly with partners who play quickly certainly helps as a playing TD though. I don't think I've ever had to not play a board when directing due to running out of time (although I have due to playing the wrong board and seeing the results on another board before playing it. I did give myself A- for that :P ).
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 16:30

View Postmjj29, on 2012-April-04, 15:52, said:

I suspect there's a lot of difference between the ACBL and the EBU here. AIUI many (most?) of the ACBL clubs have a paid director (possibly the owner) who does not generally play, or does so only to fill in the movement. In this case I would agree with the A-/A+ or A/A+ options. In the EBU, certainly at the clubs I have played in, the club is run by the members, all of whom are volunteers. There are obviously larger clubs where this isn't the case, but I get the impression these are in the minority. Where everyone has turned up to play and the director is doing so as a volunteer on a rota in order to see the club run, I have much more sympathy with the A+/A+ or A/A+ views.


Yes, quite. I assumed "volunteer" when I read "playing director".
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-04, 16:33

View Postbarmar, on 2012-April-04, 12:06, said:

At our club, whether the director plays or not depends on how many players show up. Not everyone shows up with a partner, we have quite a few singles. If there are an even number of singles, we pair them up and then I play with my regular partner. If there are an odd number, my partner plays with one of them (he's very accomodating) and I just direct.


I am confused. Are you saying that, as a volunteer director, you are willing to forego playing? Or are you saying that, as a paid director, you arrive with a partner? I can't figure out which is more unlikely.
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#17 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-April-05, 06:01

This has been discussed here and elsewhere a number of times. No consensus is ever reached. I would award myself Ave not Ave Plus but I have some sympathy with people who award themselves Ave Plus.

As explained earlier, Not Played is illegal so do not do that.

I tend to think in terms of an unpaid TD, ie a volunteer who has often been "persuaded" to do the job. But I remember the rules of the Festiniog Railway, which was run by full-time staff, part-time staff, and volunteers: to be a volunteer you had to accept that your responsibility was the same as if you were paid full-time. In the same way I accept the duties of a TD as being the same whether I am unpaid, given a free go, or paid.

One thing that does make a difference is the status of the TD's partner, who has to accept the Ave or Ave Plus. If he has arranged to play with a TD then it is reasonable enough if he gets Ave. But if the TD is playing to fill in with a paying customer who came with no intention of playing with the TD, now I think Ave Plus is more reasonable.

Having said all that, this reminds me somewhat of the thread on slow play: it seems a problem that will not occur generally in a well-run club. After all, I cannot remember ever losing a board while directing because of giving a ruling.
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-April-05, 07:45

View PostVampyr, on 2012-April-04, 16:33, said:

I am confused. Are you saying that, as a volunteer director, you are willing to forego playing? Or are you saying that, as a paid director, you arrive with a partner? I can't figure out which is more unlikely.

I'm not our club's regular director, but fill in on occasion (it's a weekly game, and there are a couple of us who take turns when the regular TD is away). Although I get paid ($50 for the session), I would do it without being paid, so I consider myself to be a volunteer. My regular partner shows up, and depending on the number of singles, he either plays with one of the singles or me.

The regular director doesn't have a regular partner, so he only plays if there are an odd number of singles. If he actually wants to play with someone, he prearranges the date and asks one of the backup directors to fill in for him that night.

#19 User is offline   Oof Arted 

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Posted 2012-April-05, 12:28

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-April-04, 09:06, said:

First off, "not played" is not "= average". Secondly, it's illegal to award NP in cases where a table did not play a board they were scheduled by the movement to play. Thirdly, a playing director should never, IMO, award his side A+ for a board missed because he was performing his directorial duties. I would say average at best, and I would prefer average minus (if he hadn't decided to both play and direct, this problem would not have arisen, so he is "directly at fault"). The playing director's opponents should always get A+, because they were "in no way at fault".



Rather harsh Ed so a player who out of the kindess of his or HER heart or felt duty to his Club should Penalise himself for TD ing

How do you suggest little clubs manage without Volunteers :angry:
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#20 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-April-05, 12:40

I have never lost a board because of directing; I have however had to cancel a board because I couldn't play it with any confidence of lack of bias after a ruling (actually with that board, multiple rulings on the same hand at different tables that meant that I saw two hands, both dummy).
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