[Flameous]

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Dealer N
2/1, 2♦ is always 5+, opener's 2♠ would be catch all and thus 3♣ shows about 16 count or sound 55+
I'm referring if you open 1S as would be quite standard with us. For 2C auctions I have even less idea.

[BunnyGo]

Flameous, on 2012-March-18, 07:55, said:

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Dealer N
2/1, 2♦ is always 5+, opener's 2♠ would be catch all and thus 3♣ shows about 16 count or sound 55+

I don't understand anything you wrote except "2/1". I generally don't like opening 2 suiters 2♣, but this hand clearly is a game forcing hand. Are you saying that a 2♦ response is 5+ ♦?

In any case, here's my partnership's auction:

2♣-3♦*
3♠-4♦
5♣-5♦
7NT

3♦ is a controls response showing 4+ controls (Ace = 2, King = 1). North then knows they have all the aces and kings and basically is just going to punt 7NT hoping for a 4th heart in south, or the Q♠ or Q♦. My partnership doesn't have any sophisticated or usable followups here, which is maybe a sign we should discuss

Using more standard methods (2♥ double negative say):

2♣-3♦
3♠-4♦
5♣-5NT
6♣-6NT
Dunno

Tough hands.

[bluecalm]

Very tough hand imo.
I think this hand needs to be opened with 2C because if you open 1S you will have problems even after 2/1 (let alone 1N) because you will not do justice to this hand even jumping to invitational 4NT so basically you will be force to jam slams on many auctions which you don't want.
Anyway I have no idea how sensible auction could look here. Even if you manage rkcb on diamonds at some point you are still not totally comfortable signing off in 6N from either side.

[ArtK78]

7NT is an abominable contract, and it may be hard to avoid after the obvious 2♣ opening by North. If you cannot avoid getting to a grand slam, 7♣ is the best grand. You need 3-3 clubs, but after that you need a lot less in 7♣ than you need in 7NT.

[mike777]

Flameous, on 2012-March-18, 07:55, said:

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Dealer N
2/1, 2♦ is always 5+, opener's 2♠ would be catch all and thus 3♣ shows about 16 count or sound 55+
I'm referring if you open 1S as would be quite standard with us. For 2C auctions I have even less idea.

2c=3d
3s=4d
4h(rkc in d)=5c(2 deny q)
6d=p

Of course 6d can go down.

[Zelandakh]

These are terrible hands to bid in standard methods. 2♣ - 3♦; 3♠ - 4♦ seems obvious. After that it is a real struggle. Perhaps we can get out with 5♣ - 5NT; 6♣ - 6♦; or perhaps that is just wishful thinking.

As usual things are a lot simpler if we can start with a strong club...

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal, or 18+ any
... - 1♠ = 9+, no 4 card majors, GF
1NT = relay, usually 18+
... - 2♣ = 5+ diamonds, 0-4 clubs
2♦ = relay
... - 2♠ = 3 hearts, 6-7 diamonds
2NT = relay
... - 3♠ = 1372
4♣ = relay
... - 4NT = extras, 4 controls
6♣

A solid diamond suit would have started with a 2NT response so clubs looks like a better bet. Even here the hand is not exactly a cake-walk as there is no way of finding out if Responder started with ♣Jx. I suspect you need a strong club system optimised for slam bidding to really bid this one with full confidence. Am somewhat interested to see what Ben(lessard)'s system makes of the hand given there is no 8 card fit to RKCB in. All-in-all I would expect to see plenty of red numbers on the traveller for this board. Good hand Flameous!

[mike777]

Give south the t of d rather than the 8 and not so bad slam.

[ArtK78]

mike777, on 2012-March-19, 09:02, said:

Give south the t of d rather than the 8 and not so bad slam.

Well, sure. Give South the ♦10 and 6♦ is odds-on. But he doesn't have the ♦10.

[mikeh]

I agree that N should open 2♣. I hate doing so on two-suiters, but we have a Losing Trick count of 3!!!!(edit I had misread the hand as AKQxx in both blacks so had posted a LTC of 2...but 3 is still very, very good) Since the typical minimum 1♠ opener has a LTC of 7, we are about 5 tricks north of a minimum, and that is way too much to ever hope to convey. We have good play for grand opposite xxx Kxx xxxx xxx. I will risk missing games by opening at the 1-level, but risk a grand? Not for me. heck, I bet Art would open 2♣

My experience has persuaded me that the best approach for responder, when holding an unusual hand, is to bid 2♦ almost automatically. This works best in a method in which 2♥ is an immediate negative, since 2♦ establishes a gf, and allows for later, below game, bids to be forcing.

Since S is driving to slam once partner bids 2♣, I think S should try to allow opener maximal room to describe. For example, should opener rebid 2N, which is a common move after 2♣, S is well placed (assuming reasonable methods) to set diamonds and keycard. Whereas if he bids 3♦, and hears partner bid 3N, the auction will likely get complex absent special agreements....how does responder set diamonds and keycard? Maybe some partnerships can, but many won't be able to do so.

As it happens, nothing works well here.

2♣ 2♦
2♠ 3♦
4♣ 4♦
4N 6♦

4N is natural (please, if 4N is some form of blackwood for you, please reconsider your methods)

Note that on this auction, were opener to hold AKQxx AQ Q AKxxx, he could and should bid 7♦.

[BunnyGo]

ArtK78, on 2012-March-18, 09:45, said:

7NT is an abominable contract, and it may be hard to avoid after the obvious 2♣ opening by North. If you cannot avoid getting to a grand slam, 7♣ is the best grand. You need 3-3 clubs, but after that you need a lot less in 7♣ than you need in 7NT.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that I wanted to be there...just that I expected to get to that spot.

[rmnka447]

Assume you are playing 2 C Strong, 2 D waiting, Cheapest suit second negative.

This may that rare hand where even though South has a very positive response hand he should make waiting bid of 2 D.
North is advertising a big hand -- either NT type hand or a big black hand with 3 or 4 losers.

So,

2 C 2 D
2 S 3 D
4 C 4 D
5 C ?

North has a guess as to the best place to play. He knows that there is no more than a 7 card fit in either black suit. So I'd probably opt for 5 D at this point realizing that the D fit is no worse than the other suits and may be more than 7 cards. After which, I think North should pass. 6 C is actually the best contract, but if North held C AQJxx instead it wouldn't be. No way for South to know.

If the strong 1 C ers have the tools to get to the C slam on this hand more power to them.

[nigel_k]

I agree with Mike about responding 2♦ on South.

Actually, I would suggest responding 2♦ on any hand where you intend to always bid slam and the only decisions are about strain and whether to bid grand. A positive is necessary when slam will depend on opener's strength and fit, because opener can only cooperate if they know responder has values.

On the hand, obviously 2♦ doesn't solve all your problems. There will be hard decisions later. But you will have an extra round of bidding to help figure out what to do.

[wyman]

I am a gigantic nit when it comes to opening 2C with 2-suiters, but dude this hand is 2 losers. You've gotta open 2C.

As to a good auction, I'll simply contribute "yuck."

[y66]

I have an agreement that 3D over 2C shows 6+ diamonds and 2 of top 3 honors. A hand with solid diamonds would bid 3N over 2C.

So, I'm taking mike777's route.