[Fluffy]

Well I didn´t read anything about the system, but I must say I´m impressed, I never though anyone would mak posts even larger than Ben´s ones. .

[Pavell]

mikestar, on Nov 26 2004, 09:14 AM, said:

Pavell, on Nov 7 2004, 03:15 AM, said:

7. You will NEVER miss a Slam

You are a liar. No bidding method never misses a slam--even "Bid a slam on every hand" will sometimes fail by getting you to the wrong slam!

Thank you
Do you want to try this one with ForcePoint (the opps are pass thrughout the Bidding):

Axx
AKQJxx
Axx
AJx

xxx
xx
xxx
KQxxx

And for your information I will tell you that the ForcePoint's bids are ALWAYS strictly synonimous, so you can be sure that I won't be able to improvise. ForcePoint's Slams can fail in one condition: if you do not know the system.

[Pavell]

hrothgar, on Nov 26 2004, 09:23 AM, said:

>  7. You will NEVER miss a Slam

Interesting claim

......................... ---
......................... ---
......................... Qxxxxxxxx
......................... AQTxx

AKQJ ........................................................ xxxxx
AKQJ ........................................................ Txxxx
AK ............................................................ JT9
KJ9 ........................................................... ---

.......................... Txxx
.......................... xxxx
.......................... ---
.......................... xxxxx

Can you find the Grand on this hand?

- First of all, let me remind you that I have said: "You will Never miss a Slam". So, I didn't said: "Never miss a Grand Slam". If opps open or overcall with 3NT or above, it is possible, although unlikely ForcePoint to miss a Grand Slam. After this reminder, I can start:

1. Let's North open 4♦ and then overcall West's Double (X) with 5♣. With opening or overcalling on lower levels all be easier.
- The X on 2nd level or up ALWAYS asks for Control Points (CP), and the steps answers ALWAYS start from 3 or 4 CP or nothing (1 Singleton or 1 King or nothing). The 2nd step will show 5 or 6 CP (1 Void or 1 Ace ), the 3rd step will show 8 CP (2 Kings), the 4th step = 10 CP (1 Ace + 1 King) and so on...
- The Abbr will be: B# for Base number, CP for Control Points, S for Singleton, V for Void, X for Double

- By Fp Counting :
North has 6+6+2+8=22 pts (22/4-2=3, Base number of 3)
East has -2-2+0+5=1 pt (1/4-2=-2, Base number of -2, i.e. B(-2)
South has -2-2+5-2=-1 pt (-1/4-2=-2, i.e B(-2)
West has 15+15+10+5=45 pts (45/4=1=9, i.e. B9)

- The Bidding will be:

North - East - South - West
4♦ - pass (B2 or less) - pass - X (Relay for CP with B5+)
5♣ - X (1 Void or 1 Ace) - pass - 5♦(Relay for the Basic suit)
pass - 6♥(bi-color ♥♠) - pass - 7♠

NOTE: If the East's hand had a shape of any 4432 it is possible ForcePoint to be unable to find a Grand Slam. But if North open below 3NT or didn't bid 5♣, there won't be a problem to reach any Slam.
Also you maybe already mentioned that the B# of the ForcePoint's overcallers must be at least 1 less that the Level of the Opening to bid someting different than Pass, and it must be at least 1 more than the Level of the Opening (but not less than B5+) to bid X for the Control Points Asking (CPA)

[Pavell]

Fluffy, on Nov 26 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

Well I didn´t read anything about the system, but I must say I´m impressed, I never though anyone would mak posts even larger than Ben´s ones.  .

- You do not need to read enyting else for ForcePoint except the first 2 Chapters and implement them to your own system. This is less then 2 pages. But I have an exceptional Control Points Asking (CPA), which you maybe will miss. The system's bids are for the computers and Experts, which want to put the Blue Team in their pocket, so most of us won't need them, because we will not be able to find enough money for such invitation, and how you maybe probably suspect already, no one will invite other to be beat by him.
- So, my only chance is to go against GIB and JACK, if somebody decide to finish my source code. Zaro probably can do that, he is an exellent programmer, and some day ForcePoint may elope to ZAR. Only then the Zar ForcePoint's Team of 6 Experts will have the necessary invitation's money . Uday and Fred or GIB can do that also, so BBO ForcePoint or GIB ForcePoint are not excluded. Only JACK won't be able to do anything (I mean to keep the 1st place on the World Bridge Computer Championship). Watch the Vugraph.

[Pavell]

MarceldB, on Nov 26 2004, 10:28 AM, said:

> 7. You will NEVER miss a Slam

but also the correct one?

W/-
3 ------------ AKQJ96
AK98753---- Q6
- ------------ T972
AJ743------- Q
7♠?

Axx--------- xx
Axx--------- xxx
AKQx------- xx
xxx--------- AKQxxx
J♦ investigated? If yes 5NT still playable?

Axx--------- xxx
Axxx-------- xx
AKJx-------- Qxxxxx
Ax----------- xxx
Do you know the 6th♦ for 3NT? If yes the Q♦ too?

AKxx-------- xx
AJxx--------- xx
KQ----------- Jxxxxxx
AKx---------- Qx
Q♠ + Q♣ investigated, if yes J♦ too?

To all above questions I can assent with my system BUT claiming "NEVER miss a slem" is an other matter.
So I'm curious to be informed about your sequences for above examples.
Thanks.

- The first 3 games are easy for Bidding. The 4th one can freeze the blood of any Bidding Developer, but not my. I hope to find some time in 24 hours and respond to you with the Bidding and complete explanations, so you will find out how the ForcePoints works... Let's start with it:

I presume the opps pass throughout the Bidding, and West is the Opener. I you need East to be the Dealer on some of the games, ask me to correct the Bidding)

West has 10+7+6+10=33 pts, so his B#=33/4-2=B6, and he has 30 Control Points (CP)
Еаst has 0+0+1+2=3 pts, so his B#=3/4-2=-1, i.e. his Base is Negative, and no CP
The Play Level (PL) is the sum of both partners B#

AKxx-------- xx
AJxx--------- xx
KQ----------- Jxxxxxx
AKx---------- Qx
Q♠ + Q♣ investigated, if yes J♦ too?

West - East

1♣(B2+, any shape) - 1♠(Negative, the presumption is ALWAYS for B(-1)
2♣(B5+, Relay for the Basic suit, the Play Level PL = 5 for now) - 2♦(2 or 5+ card suit)
2♥(Relay for the other 2 suits) - 3NT(3 equal length suits, shape of 2272)
4♣(Relay for CP) - 4♦(Zero CP)
4♥(Relay for 03/14/2/2 Queen(s) in the longest suit suit + the J in the longest suit suit) - 4♠(no Q in the longest suit, but may have up to 3 Honors around it including the J in the longest suit)
4NT(Relay for the J in the longest suit along with the Q in the side suit) - 6♣(J in the longest suit + Q♣)
6♦

NOTE: after 2♥ Relay for the 2 other suits the answers by SCOR-SCOR one only Convention will be:

1st step = 2♠ will show the 2 equal or with close length "S" suits (Surrounding the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♣ and ♥ with 2 or 5 card ♦ suit
2nd step = 2NT will show the 2 equal or with close length "CO" suits (suits with equal color, excluding the color of the ♦ Basic suit, i.e for ♣ and ♠ with 2 or 5 card ♦ suit
3rd step = 3♣ will show the 2 equal or with close length "R" suits (the 2 suits with equal RANK, excluding the RANK of the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♠ and ♥ with 2 or 5 card ♦ suit
4th step = 3♦ will show the 2 equal or with close length "S" suits (Surrounding the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♣ and ♥ with 6 card ♦ suit
5th step = 3♥ will show the 2 equal or with close length "CO" suits (suits with equal color, excluding the color of the ♦ Basic suit, i.e for ♣ and ♠ with 6 card ♦ suit
6th step = 3♠ will show the 2 equal or with close length "R" suits (the 2 suits with equal RANK, excluding the RANK of the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♠ and ♥ with 6 card ♦ suit
- 3NT always show shape of 2227 or 2272 (for the Minor Basic suits only) !
7th step = 4♣ will show 2 by 2 card length in the "R" suits (the 2 suits with equal RANK, excluding the RANK of the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♠ and ♥ with 6 card ♦ suit and 4 cards in ♣ suit, i.e. 2274 shape
8th step = 4♦ will show 3 by 3 card length in the "R" suits (the 2 suits with equal RANK, excluding the RANK of the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♠ and ♥ with 6 card ♦ suit, i.e. 3370 shape
9th step = 4♥ will show 2 by 3 card length in the "R" suits (the 2 suits with equal RANK, excluding the RANK of the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♠ and ♥ with 6 card ♦ suit, i.e. 2371 shape
10th step = 4♠ will show 3 by 2 card length in the "R" suits (the 2 suits with equal RANK, excluding the RANK of the Basic ♦ suit, i.e for ♠ and ♥ with 6 card ♦ suit, i.e. 3271 shape

- The above bids are presented for demonstration of the SCOR-SCOR OneOnly Convention, which ForcePoint uses for all distribution (and Control) needs

Note: after 4NT the steps answer will be:

5♣ = no J in the longest suit, but 3 Honors around it
5♦ = J in the longest suit , but no Q in the side suit
5♥ = J in the longest suit + Q♥
5♠ = J in the longest suit + Q♠
5NT = J in the longest suit + up to 2 more Honors around it
6♣ = (J in the longest suit + Q♣)

- How you can see, although the SCOR-SCOR mechnism is ALWAYS the same, the ForcePoint's Bidding is for computers and Experts (of course, anyone can learn it as well)

*********************
Let's start with the rest of the games:

3 ------------ AKQJ96
AK98753---- Q6
- ------------ T972
AJ743------- Q
7♠?

West has 3+10+5+7=25 pts. His B#=25/4-2=B4
East has 15+2-2+3=18 pts. His B#=18/4-2=B2
The PlayLevel is B4+B2= PL 6, and because of the Super FIT, it will go to 7

West - East
2NT(B3+, bi-color with Void+Singleton) - 3♣(Relay for the Singleton's suit, the PL is 5 for now)
3♠(Singleton ♠) - 4♣(Relay for the bi-color suits by SCOR-SCOR. The PL is 4 for now, because of the Adjustment for King opposite a Singleton in ♠ suit. NOTE: 3NT ALWAYS will be Signoff ! )
4♦(it is "S" bi-color, i.e. Surrounding the previously bid suit of♠, i.e. ♣♥ bi-color) - 4♥(Relay for 7 card suit)
4NT(it is ♥ suit) - 5♣(Relay for Control Points (CP), the PL is 5 now, because of the ♥ Super Fit)
5♠(16 CP. NOTE: The 1st step is for the value of 3 Kings, because of B3 of the opener = 12 CP) - 5NT(Reley for the King's suit. The PL is 6 now, because West easy can find and correct his partner's B#. The pts are 3 (for the Singleton) + 5 (for the Void) + 16 (CP) = 24. B# = 24/4-2 = B4 )
6♥(King of ♥ - ? (Pass, 6♠, 7♥ or 7♠? That simply your choice, you have PL 6 and 35 CP. ForcePoint explicitly shows to you that you are short of 1 CP (you have only 9 CP for the Void in ♦ suit, not 6+4=10 CP for the real Controls, and your ♥ PL = 6. And you need both requirements to be fulfilled (PL & and 36+ CP) to go for Grand Slam !
Let's count the PL for ♠ suit:
- By all you know for your partner he has 3+10+5+6=24 pts, so his Base number = B4. You have B2. The PL in ♠ suit is: 4+2-1(for Trump Misfit)+1(for 2nd Fit in ♥)= 6. You do not have the right (by Fp's Rules) to play 7♠ at all (how you can see by the actual diagram, you risked to be Trumped in ♥ right away on the attack). The computer will bid Pass and will play 6♥, but even an Expert Player may ignore the ForcePoint's precautionary ban. If you ask me personally, I can choose to bid Pass or to bid 6♠, but NEVER 7.
NOTE: On 6th level there are no Relays by ForcePoint's Rules, so any bid by the Quest is absolute Signoff !

**************
Axx--------- xx
Axx--------- xxx
AKQx------- xx
xxx--------- AKQxxx

J♦ investigated? If yes 5NT still playable?

West has 6+6+12-2=22 pts. His B#=22/4-2=B3, and although there are enough Controls for CPC (Control Points Correction) which can eveluate the B# to B4, there are not all requirements fulfilled.
East has 0-2+0+12=10 pts. His B#=10/4-2=B1, because of CPC (Control Points Correction).

NOTE: Do not ask me for the CPC, it is an inner circle's information only !

The PlayLevel is B3+B1= PL 4, and because of the Super FIT, it will go to 5

West - East
1♣(B2+, any shape) - 1♦(waiting, B(0)+, any shape)
1NT (B3, any shape) - 1NT (PL 4 for now, 1 Round Forcing, Relay because East can not make a free bid with 6+ suit. NOTE: Without 6+ card suit and B(0) he will be obligated to show his 2 (if no 5 card suit) or 5 card suit)
3♦(absolute balance shape of 3343) - 3NT (ALWAYS an absolute Signoff. PL = 5, so it is meaningless to ask for any CP)

NOTE: Suppose that J of ♦ was in Weas hand. His pts will raise from 22 to 25 ( 1 pt for the J + 2 pts for the Master Sequence in ♦, so his B# will be B4, not B3, and the PL will go to 6. Let's make the Bidding in this condition:

1♣(B2+, any shape) - 1♦(waiting, B(0)+, any shape)
1♠(B4, any shape) - 1NT(1 Round Forcing, Relay because East can not make a free bid with 6+ suit. NOTE: Normally, without 6 card suit and B(0) he will be obligated to show his 2 or 5 card suit)
3♦(absolute balance shape of 3343) - 3♥(CPA, it is late for free bid, and I saw the ♣ Super Fit, the PL = B4+B1+ SupFit = 6. NOTE: CPA = ControlPoints Asking)
4♦(22 CP, obviously 3 Aces+1 King). NOTE: The 1st step will be for the value of 4 Kings, because of B4, i.e. for 16 CP, and every next step add 2 CP - 4♥(Relay for the King's suit)
5♦(King of ♦ - 5♥(Relay for the Q in the longest suit)
5NT(1/4 = Q of ♦ or up to 4 other low level Honors including the J of ♦ - 6NT (PL 6, CP = 32).
NOTE: On 6th level there are no Relays by ForcePoint's Rules, so any bid by the Quest is absolute Signoff !

*****************
- Let's finish your games:

Axx--------- xxx
Axxx-------- xx
AKJx-------- Qxxxxx
Ax----------- xxx
Do you know the 6th♦ for 3NT? If yes the Q♦ too?

West has 6+6+11+6=29 pts. His B#=29/4-2=B5
East has -2+0+2-2=-2 pts. His B#=-2/4-2=B(-2), but the partner will be aware only of B(-1) by Fp Rules.
The real Play Level (PL) = B5-B2 = PL 3

West - East

1♣ (B2+, any shape) - 1♠ (Negative Base, B(-1) or less)
1NT (Relay for Basic suit, the PL = 4 for now) - 2♦ (2 or 5+ card suit, length's priority)
2♥ (Relay for the other 2 suits) - 3♥ (red or black, color "CO" suits, excluding the color of the Basic suit, with 6 card ♦ suit) by SCOR-SCOR Convention)
3NT (The PL = 5, because of the ♦ Super Fit, or less if my partner's B# is below B(-1). I have 26 CP, and my partner ststistically with B(-1) or less will have Zero Controls. So, I can relay on 9 tricks)

- The answer to your question is: No, I do not even need to know if my partner has the Q of ♦, because I do not have PL of 6 or more for Slam, nor I can I collect 30 CP. ForcePoint won't ask for Controls or low level Honors if the requirements for Slam are not fulfilled.

- I think, Marsel, you may be satisfied on all 4 games by my answers. Thx for your concern.

[Free]

Pavell, on Nov 26 2004, 01:05 PM, said:

Free, on Nov 7 2004, 07:47 AM, said:

Pavell, on Nov 7 2004, 04:15 AM, said:

7. You will NEVER miss a Slam

I really can't believe this, never say never. There has been hands posted in the past where even with the highest precision possible we couldn't find it. Somewhere in the non-natural system forum there's posted such hand, I'd like to see if you can find slam on that one (something with a ♠ void and perfect fitting honours if I remember correctly).

Are you talking for this hand ?

AQxxx.... Kxxx
AKxx......Qxxx
Ax..........Qxx
xx..........AK

If your hand has a ♠ Void, find it, I coudn't.

I don't see any ♠ void in your hand... So this is clearly not the one I was talking about. The hand you suggest is piece of cake for MOSCITO, and several other systems as well.

However I couldn't find the exact one, but I remember nobody found it, even with the best slam systems available!

[Pavell]

Free, on Nov 28 2004, 10:43 AM, said:

Pavell, on Nov 26 2004, 01:05 PM, said:

Free, on Nov 7 2004, 07:47 AM, said:

Pavell, on Nov 7 2004, 04:15 AM, said:

7. You will NEVER miss a Slam

I really can't believe this, never say never. There has been hands posted in the past where even with the highest precision possible we couldn't find it. Somewhere in the non-natural system forum there's posted such hand, I'd like to see if you can find slam on that one (something with a ♠ void and perfect fitting honours if I remember correctly).

Are you talking for this hand ?

AQxxx.... Kxxx
AKxx......Qxxx
Ax..........Qxx
xx..........AK

If your hand has a ♠ Void, find it, I coudn't.

I don't see any ♠ void in your hand... So this is clearly not the one I was talking about. The hand you suggest is piece of cake for MOSCITO, and several other systems as well.

However I couldn't find the exact one, but I remember nobody found it, even with the best slam systems available!

- Yah, it is a piece of cake. But read the MarceldB's post above yours, there are 4 more pieces of cake, although the last one is very hard to be swallow !
- And if you find the hand you are talking about some day, let me show to you that it will be another piece of cake for ForcePoint, too. Untill then, I can not help you
But you may want to try this one on Moscito:

................... 6
................... KT976
................... QJT
................... 6543

AQ75 ........................... KJ832
8432 ............................ QJ5
753 .............................. 642
J9 ................................ Q7

................... T94
................... A
................... AK98
................... AKT84

- The original contract is 4♣. The game is published in the last Desember 2004 ussue of ACBL Bridge Bulletin in the "Partnership Bridge" section with all comments and sugestions. Hope you will enjoy.
- Forgot to tell you that Fp easy reached 6♣. Salute

[Free]

Ok, here's a constructed hand with 6♦ available despite 3 Aces outside. Combined HCP is only 13, so suppose opps are quiet

---

In MOSCITO you can find it if you keep on asking, but it's VERY unlikely! It would be:
(South - North)
1♠ - 1NT
2♥ - 2♠
2NT - 3♣
3♥ - 3♠
3NT - 4♣
4♥ - 6♦

1♠ shows 4+♦ unbalanced (9-14 HCP)
2♥ shows 6+♦ and 4 poor ♥s
2NT shows short ♠s
3♥ shows 0-4-6-3
3NT shows 5 SP
4♥ shows 1/2 tophonours ♦ and 0 tophonours in ♥
6♦ rightsiding the contract, the unknown hand will play
(north only relays)

[Pavell]

Free, on Nov 29 2004, 06:06 AM, said:

Ok, here's a constructed hand with 6♦ available despite 3 Aces outside.  Combined HCP is only 13, so suppose opps are quiet 

♠ 5432 
♥ ---
♦ JT9876 
♣ KJ2 

♠ ---
♥ 5432 
♦ AQ5432 
♣ Q32 

In MOSCITO you can find it if you keep on asking, but it's VERY unlikely!  It would be:
(South - North)
1♠ - 1NT
2♥ - 2♠
2NT - 3♣
3♥ - 3♠
3NT - 4♣
4♥ - 6♦

1♠ shows 4+♦ unbalanced (9-14 HCP)
2♥ shows 6+♦ and 4 poor ♥s
2NT shows short ♠s
3♥ shows 0-4-6-3
3NT shows 5 SP
4♥ shows 1/2 tophonours ♦ and 0 tophonours in ♥
6♦ rightsiding the contract, the unknown hand will play 
(north only relays)

- Before I start, I have a question: How many pts require Moscito's 2♥ response? And do you think you filfull the Moskito's requirement for the opening bid of 1♠?
- Despite of your answer I will tell you, that ForcePoint can not find this Slam if South is the opener. If North if the opener it is possible, because South will open in 3rd sit. I'll show it soon (my night shift just finish, and I'm going home), but the constructed games like this one are on practice probably 1 on a million, so it is possible even Fp not to be able to pespond properly. "NEVER" for most Developers usually means 1 on 100,000, and I didn't make an exception.

I will answer you tomorrow... The bids will be:

North - South

Pass - 1♦ (B1+, 6+♦ or bi-color)
2♦(B1, 5+ ♦ Basic suit, free bid) - 2♥ (Relay for other 2 suits)
3♥ (red or black "CO" suits, excluding the color of the Basic suit with 6 card in ♦ by SCOR_SCOR Convention) - 3♠ (Relay for the longest suit, excluding the Basic ♦ suit)
3NT (I have Void in the suit I didn't mention, i.e. Void ♥) - 4♣(Repeating of the Relay for the longest suit, excluding the Basic)
4♠(shape4063) - 4NT (CPA for Controls) or 5♦, let me continue tomorrow....

- Now, If South continue with Control Points Asking (CPA), s/he risks to go over 5♦, and for security reasons South will bid 5♦ Signoff, instead of 4NT CPA, but if s/he is curious, the answer after 4NT will be:

5♣ (1 King, because of B1) - 5♦ (relay for the King's suit)
6♣ (K of ♣) - 6♦ (Signoff on 6th level)

- How you can see , there wasn't enough Bidding space for low level Honors to be checked, and if North doesn't have the J of ♣ (or at least the TEN of ♣), the chances for Slam are Zero.

- Led approach the problem moving only by the curiousity:

North - South

Pass - 1♦ (B1+, 6+♦ or bi-color)
1♥ (B1+, Relay, I'm curious to see what bi-color you have) - 2♦ (6 card ♦ suit)
2♥ (Relay for the other 2 suits, that was a true surprise) - 2♠ (I have "S" suit, Surrounding the Basic ♦ suit by SCOR-SCOR Convention)
2NT (Relay for the longest suit excluding the Basic) - 3NT ( I have Void in the suit I didn't mention, i.e. Void ♠
4♣ (Repeating the Relay for the longest suit excluding the Basic) - 4♥ (shape of 0463)
4♠ (Relay for Controls by CPA) - 5♣ (1 Ace, because of B1)
5♦ (where?, Relay for the Ace's suit) - 5NT ( A of ♦)
6♦

- How you can see, even moving only by the curiousity, for ForcePoit was impossible to find the Q of ♣, because of lack of Bidding space.
- A computer will stop on 5♦, but Human...

[hrothgar]

Free, on Nov 29 2004, 02:06 PM, said:

Ok, here's a constructed hand with 6♦ available despite 3 Aces outside. Combined HCP is only 13, so suppose opps are quiet

---

In MOSCITO you can find it if you keep on asking, but it's VERY unlikely! It would be:
(South - North)
1♠ - 1NT
2♥ - 2♠
2NT - 3♣
3♥ - 3♠
3NT - 4♣
4♥ - 6♦

1♠ shows 4+♦ unbalanced (9-14 HCP)
2♥ shows 6+♦ and 4 poor ♥s
2NT shows short ♠s
3♥ shows 0-4-6-3
3NT shows 5 SP
4♥ shows 1/2 tophonours ♦ and 0 tophonours in ♥
6♦ rightsiding the contract, the unknown hand will play
(north only relays)

A MUCH more likely auction is

1♠ - (P) - 5♦

Relay auctions are a losing proposition holding minimum hands with a long fit.
Responder should get his hand off his chest with a single bid and place the maximum pressure on the opponents.

[Free]

Richard, as I said: "it's VERY unlikely". I didn't say this would be the auction, just that we CAN find it in impossible conditions (relaying, opps quiet all the time,...)

To Pavel: yes, South has the requirements of a MOSCITO 1♠ opening. He needs 6 SP or 5 SP with at least 10 cards in 2 suits (which he has). Usually openings contain around 9-14, but some rare 7 HCP hands can open (AK and 10 cards in 2 suits), and sometimes an 8 HCP hand can also open (like the one I posted).

For those who don't know: SP (Slam Points): A=3, K=2, Q=1, singleton K or Q doesn't count, at least 10 cards in 2 suits = +1SP.

[tysen2k]

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

Quote

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

[Pavell]

tysen2k, on Nov 29 2004, 02:35 PM, said:

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

Quote

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

- There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

[Pavell]

hrothgar, on Nov 29 2004, 07:20 AM, said:

Free, on Nov 29 2004, 02:06 PM, said:

Ok, here's a constructed hand with 6♦ available despite 3 Aces outside.  Combined HCP is only 13, so suppose opps are quiet 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ 5432 ♥   ♦ JT9876 ♣ KJ2 ♠   ♥ 5432 ♦ AQ5432 ♣ Q32

In MOSCITO you can find it if you keep on asking, but it's VERY unlikely!  It would be:
(South - North)
1♠ - 1NT
2♥ - 2♠
2NT - 3♣
3♥ - 3♠
3NT - 4♣
4♥ - 6♦

1♠ shows 4+♦ unbalanced (9-14 HCP)
2♥ shows 6+♦ and 4 poor ♥s
2NT shows short ♠s
3♥ shows 0-4-6-3
3NT shows 5 SP
4♥ shows 1/2 tophonours ♦ and 0 tophonours in ♥
6♦ rightsiding the contract, the unknown hand will play 
(north only relays)

A MUCH more likely auction is

1♠ - (P) - 5♦

Relay auctions are a losing proposition holding minimum hands with a long fit.
Responder should get his hand off his chest with a single bid and place the maximum pressure on the opponents.

- That's true, if you do not expect Slams, or want to preempt, but I prefer to hear what the opps could say, because their bids not only will supply information, but will help ForcePoint's Bidding. That's way I do not think the Relay bids are lossing proposition in this case

[hrothgar]

Pavell, on Nov 30 2004, 04:15 AM, said:

tysen2k, on Nov 29 2004, 02:35 PM, said:

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

Quote

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

- There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Partner has just made a limited opening bid showing 4+ Diamonds and ~ 9 - 14 HCP.

I hold:

♠ 5432
♥ Void
♦ JT9876
♣ KJ5

From my perspective:

1. I don't expect a slam to make and I am prepared to pay off it it does
2. I want to jam the auction as much as possible and force the last quess on the opponents

As usual, I advocate a mixed strategy and would randomize across the following set of bids with the following approximate percentages:

3D = 10%
3NT = 15%
3H = 15%
4D = 15%
5D = 45%

[Flame]

Pavell, on Nov 29 2004, 08:15 PM, said:

Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

I'll tell you why, its because your system is not the only one in the world, there are lots of them, infact nothing in your system is new, most of the systems face te same problems, and one of those problem, is how much you can load on the 1c bid to take off from the other bids, some things it should be 17+ some 16+ and moscito is trying 15+ but the players of it "complained" more then once that its very vulnarable to interference, and now you come out of now were with 1c=B2 and claim you can handle it without a problem, we dont have to know this specific system, to know that its not true.

[tysen2k]

Pavell, on Nov 29 2004, 08:15 PM, said:

There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Actually I did read a lot of your pages. The 10+ HCP is actually a quote from your own webpage:

Quote

1c = B2+, any shape (for the opps: 10+ HCP, any shape, ALERT)

I was just using what you wrote as I'm guessing an "approximate strength" so that everyone can have a general idea about how strong a hand we're talking about. I know that B2 does not equal 10 HCP, it's just approximate.

But the fact is that you cannot just make a sweeping arguement that your system can totally handle all preemption up to 3NT. It's just so glaringly false. If I'm wrong then give us some good examples with opponent preemption.

Tysen

[Pavell]

hrothgar, on Nov 30 2004, 08:03 AM, said:

Pavell, on Nov 30 2004, 04:15 AM, said:

tysen2k, on Nov 29 2004, 02:35 PM, said:

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

Quote

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

- There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Partner has just made a limited opening bid showing 4+ Diamonds and ~ 9 - 14 HCP.

I hold:

♠ 5432
♥ Void
♦ JT9876
♣ KJ5

From my perspective:

1. I don't expect a slam to make and I am prepared to pay off it it does
2. I want to jam the auction as much as possible and force the last quess on the opponents

As usual, I advocate a mixed strategy and would randomize across the following set of bids with the following approximate percentages:

3D = 10%
3NT = 15%
3H = 15%
4D = 15%
5D = 45%

- I do not understand, why you publish it here? There nothing in connection with ForcePoint. Bid what you want. You NEVER will be sure for what you did. When my partner open, I know his minimum B#. Suppose he open 1♦. That will be B2,B3, 6+ ♦ suit ot bi-color with 0-3 cards in ♦. With the hand you showed, which B# = Zero, I alredy know what we have, and up to what level we can go to play or to sacrifise.

[Pavell]

tysen2k, on Nov 30 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

Pavell, on Nov 29 2004, 08:15 PM, said:

There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Actually I did read a lot of your pages. The 10+ HCP is actually a quote from your own webpage:

Quote

1c = B2+, any shape (for the opps: 10+ HCP, any shape, ALERT)

I was just using what you wrote as I'm guessing an "approximate strength" so that everyone can have a general idea about how strong a hand we're talking about. I know that B2 does not equal 10 HCP, it's just approximate.

But the fact is that you cannot just make a sweeping arguement that your system can totally handle all preemption up to 3NT. It's just so glaringly false. If I'm wrong then give us some good examples with opponent preemption.

Tysen

- There are probably around billions examples with preemptive openings or overcalls. Your opinion about ForcePoint will not change if I loose 1 hour to give to you personal 2-3 examples. Find the example I have already give to an Expert poster. What I remember, I made an example with opps 4♦ opening, even they bid again 5♣ in attempt to prevent a Slam. Read it , and think about the lower preemptive.
- You simply are suspisious, that ForcePoint will be weak on preemtive. Why? You didn't checked it. Obviously you do not like the fact, that somewhere around can persist a system that is better on preemptive than the systems you know. You do not need a system that will shake your basic bridge imagination. Let's decide what to do. Close your eyes and forget about it.

[hrothgar]

Pavell, on Dec 1 2004, 12:15 PM, said:

You simply are suspisious, that ForcePoint will be weak on preemtive. Why? You didn't checked it. Obviously you do not like the fact, that somewhere around can persist a system that is better on preemptive than the systems you know. You do not need a system that will shake your basic bridge imagination. Let's decide what to do. Close your eyes and forget about it.

I'll readily admit that I have some "issues" with ForcePoint:

Issue 1: ForcePoint's hand evaluatation system is complex. Coupled with this, the hand evaluation structure is not particularly accurate. The score generated by your hand evaluation system is worse than a number of less complex methods.

Issue 2: Rather than responding this critique you have essentially ignored it while making grandious if not impossible claims about the accuracy of your system. A claim that you will "never" miss a slam isn't an impressive one. Exagerations like this one suggest snake oil.

Issue 3: Your postings about ForcePoint are [essentially] a commercial for a series of products that you are selling. I very much enjoy debating bidding theory. However, I dislike commercial advertizement on education forums.

Before I invest the time and money required to learn your system, you really need to demonstrate that its worthwhile for me to do so.

The single most "impressive" thing that you could do would be demonstrate that you have a sound "foundation". Demonstrate that your hand evaluation methods are worth their complexity...