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What is 4C?

#21 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2012-February-23, 13:13

View Postmikeh, on 2012-February-22, 13:23, said:

Opener cannot be showing clubs....there is virtually zero chance that the partnership can have a playable club fit at this juncture and, if they do, that they can or should be looking for it. Yes, 6-6 is 'possible' but 6-6 should either not have opened to start with or should bid 3 over 2 (I mean, shape does count for something) or should give up on clubs. Catering to 6-6 hands in your bidding methods means wasting a lot of energy....when was the last time you held one, and got to open the bidding and the opps didn't interfere?

Opener doesn't have to be 6-6 to have a playable fit. He can be 5-5 and responder can easily have a 1=4=5=3. So calling it "virtually zero chance" is exaggerated. Whether the partnership should stop looking for the fit is another story, definitely. Btw, finding this 5-3 fit isn't that hard, because responder can bid 4 after opener's signoff in 3NT. It's definitely debatable imo what it should be.

It also depends on your slam methods. For example, if you expect partner to Blacky whenever he doesn't hold all controls (like he did - why didn't he just cue 4?), then 4 better be cue. If you play Kickback Turbo it's not a problem to play 4 natural. B-)
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#22 User is offline   Poky 

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Posted 2012-February-23, 13:22

View Postkgr, on 2012-February-23, 10:17, said:

We wondered if 4 (iso 4) already denied a -control

4 doesn't deny anything, just shows diamond fit.
4NT bid was bad.
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#23 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-February-23, 14:32

View PostPoky, on 2012-February-23, 13:22, said:

4 doesn't deny anything, just shows diamond fit.
4NT bid was bad.


Well, 4 denies a club control if playing with Mike and denies 6331 if playing with me. But, otherwise 4 is fairly non-committal.

4NT being "bad" is true. But, the question is what to do otherwise. If 4NT is RKCB, and if 4 would offer strain, then two plausible courses seem good.


1. Low road. If Responder wants to shoot low, 4 is a reasonable call, playable opposite Hxx. As Opener actually has that, 4 will be passed and seems like a good contract.


2. High road. If Responder wants to pursue the slam, he bids 4, which IMO should be a cue. When Opener cannot cue clubs, this results in an inferior 5 contract.

2B. High road, option #2. If 4 is by partnership also a plausible strain offer, then Responder has to bid 5 as an asking bid, kind of like Last Train, contextually denying a club control and hence requiring one. Again, 5 ends up the inferior contract.
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#24 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-24, 04:27

What would people rebid after 1S - 2D - 2S - 3H holding AJ10xxx AQx Kx xx? Any votes for 4H?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#25 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-February-24, 05:32

View Posthan, on 2012-February-24, 04:27, said:

What would people rebid after 1S - 2D - 2S - 3H holding AJ10xxx AQx Kx xx? Any votes for 4H?

I'd want to bid Fourth Suit Forcing.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#26 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-February-24, 08:17

This may be "all wet" :
From my post # 16 ( and both hands post # 20 ) :
South North
1S - 2D ( 1RF )
2S - 3C! ( cheapest-bid new suit forcing, could be artificial )
??
...3D ( 3 cards ♦ ; Edit: denies 4 cards )
...3H ( 4 cards ♥ ; 1st priority )
...3S ( ♣-stop(s), possibly 4 cards ♣ )
..3NT ( no 4h, but have ♥-stop(s) )

so, after ......... - 3C!
3D ( 3 cards ) - 3H
3S .................. - ??
..........................3NT probably a suggestion to play ( I don't think "Serious" applies here )
.......................... 4C would be a cue, or perhaps last train ?
.......................... 4D would be Minorwood since suit agreement was on 3-level
.......................... 4H would be cue, denying a -Ctrl

so, after .......... - 4H
5D ( no -Ctrl either ) - pass
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#27 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-24, 12:34

Nobody has yet mentioned what seems to me to be the most obvious meaning: choice of strains in the red suit. 3-3 in the red suits but may wish to play the 4-3 heart rather than the 53 diamond is not uncommon hand type here I think.

The second most obvious meaning, to me, is natural with a weakish 5-5 hand: Axxxx xx x AKJxx, ofc i generally just bid 3N with this type of hand, but there is some variety of style available in the 3H bid, and a lot depends on whether you have some way to set up a GF with 3S. Does 3H always deny 3 spades? Not sure if this makes sense, but if it going to be natural 55 makes a lot more sense than 6-4 or 54.

There is obviously some merit in playing it as a good hand for diamonds aswell.
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