[120248]

http://tinyurl.com/88oj6ya

I think north too strong to rebid 2♠

Is it your opinion ?

[mike777]

[quote name='120248' timestamp='1327772604' post='606706']
http://tinyurl.com/88oj6ya

I think north too strong to rebid 2♠

Is it your opinion ?


I dont get all these posts complaining about the bots bids.


Again clearly north has its system bid, 5s and 7+, and south does not.

[palabreur]

120248, on 2012-January-28, 11:43, said:

http://tinyurl.com/88oj6ya

I think north too strong to rebid 2♠

Is it your opinion ?

The problem is that you think 2♠ is limited. GIB disagrees, 2♠ is unlimited; 2NT is its only limited rebid. Both 2♠ and 3♦ were forcing.

Should 2♠ be forcing? That's a different question. But you have to play GIB's system.

[mike777]

palabreur, on 2012-January-28, 17:00, said:

The problem is that you think 2!S is limited. GIB disagrees, 2♠ is unlimited; 2NT is its only limited rebid. Both 2♠ and 3♦ were forcing.

Should 2♠ be forcing? That's a different question. But you have to play GIB's system.

off course 2s here was limited, north is a passed hand. still north had its bids, south did not.

In any case 2s is always forcing in any system F1 at least.


no wonder there are so many complaints about gibs bidding by you humans!

[palabreur]

mike777, on 2012-January-28, 17:40, said:

off course 2s here was limited, north is a passed hand. still north had its bids, south did not.

In any case 2s is always forcing in any system F1 at least.


no wonder there are so many complaints about gibs bidding by you humans!

Fine; "unlimited except by the original pass". Happy now? 2♠ was forcing. It need not be forcing when playing lebensohl over reverses, which is what GIB is playing (as of a few weeks ago, if I recall correctly).

For references as to 2♠ not being forcing, since you claim it's "forcing in any system":

http://www.acbl.org/...ns-Lesson-6.pdf
http://home.comcast....dge/rev-leb.htm

here's one that agrees with you:
http://www.bridgehan...20reverse%20bid

I think it's counterproductive to complain that anyone who bids differently to you is obviously wrong and foolish. You might want to reconsider your attitude.

[mike777]

palabreur, on 2012-January-28, 19:20, said:

Fine; "unlimited except by the original pass". Happy now? 2♠ was forcing. It need not be forcing when playing lebensohl over reverses, which is what GIB is playing (as of a few weeks ago, if I recall correctly).

For references as to 2♠ not being forcing, since you claim it's "forcing in any system":

http://www.acbl.org/...ns-Lesson-6.pdf
http://home.comcast....dge/rev-leb.htm

here's one that agrees with you:
http://www.bridgehan...20reverse%20bid

I think it's counterproductive to complain that anyone who bids differently to you is obviously wrong and foolish. You might want to reconsider your attitude.

?First off, please quote me in full, your missquote me, then tell me I am wrong.

I dont think you understand what you are reading.


2s is forcing F1 as I said.


to put it another way 2hearts promises a rebid.

to put it a third way, yes 2s is forcing, you cannot pass it. F1 means forcing one round does not promise a rebid, not forcing to game.

anyway I am glad we agree that here 2s was not unlimited, I guess it shows around 7-11 but in any event south made the misbids.

[palabreur]

mike777, on 2012-January-28, 20:18, said:

?First off, please quote me in full, your missquote me, then tell me I am wrong.

I dont think you understand what you are reading.


2s is forcing F1 as I said.


to put it another way 2hearts promises a rebid.

to put it a third way, yes 2s is forcing, you cannot pass it. F1 means forcing one round does not promise a rebid, not forcing to game.

anyway I am glad we agree that here 2s was not unlimited, I guess it shows around 7-11 but in any event south made the misbids.

Look back, you did say 2♠ was forcing in any system. You were wrong, you remain wrong if you refuse to admit it. Is 2♠ forcing in GIB's system currently? Yes, as I pointed out.

You comment about 2♠ not being unlimited was just silly. Of course it wasn't; North was passed. We all know this. Why you needed to point it out, I'm not sure; any time anyone claims any bid is "unlimited", do you jump in to correct them, because "of course they're not unlimited, they couldn't have more than 37 points, ha ha, I'm so much smarter than you"?

One of us may fail to understand what we are reading; but it's not me. You claimed 2♠ was always at least F1 in this sequence, in any system. That statement is wrong. I showed you that it is wrong. That confusion was the reason why the original poster was having problems: (s)he thought that 2♠ was weak and passable. He was wrong for playing with GIB, but that doesn't mean that he could not have been right; GIB just happens to play 2♠ as forcing in this sequence. If you can't conceive of playing it non-forcing, that's fine. But to insinuate that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, is just plain ignorant.

[mike777]

Fair enough, you knew 2s was limited and I did not need to remind you.

[Bbradley62]

mike777, on 2012-January-28, 20:18, said:

anyway I am glad we agree that here 2s was not unlimited, I guess it shows around 7-11...

It would be nice if the description provided by GIB said this, instead of saying 7+.

[Jyrki_63]

FWIW I have always thought that this 2S rebid is a sign-off. The same as it would be without reverse (say 1H-1S-2D-2S), so 7- rather than 7+. How else do you describe a hand with loong
spades and may be 21 or 22 in the reds? Strong clubbers may have an immediate weak jump available, but naturalists don't.

The point is kinda moot, because apparently GIB plays it as forcing for one round. It wouldn't hurt to have "F1" in the alerts. Granted, we are supposed to know most of the situations, but as this hand shows, there is enough variation around the world.

[barmar]

GIB plays that after a reverse, if responder doesn't use Lebensohl he's showing 7+ HCP. Opposite the 18 points opener has shown, this is enough for game, so should force to at least 3NT.

[Bbradley62]

Why is the "I'm a passed hand" maximum included in the description of North's 1♠ but omitted for his later bids?

[barmar]

Bbradley62, on 2012-January-30, 20:41, said:

Why is the "I'm a passed hand" maximum included in the description of North's 1♠ but omitted for his later bids?

Good question. Lots of the rules for responder's rebids after opener reverses have the flag set to clear out what has been shown before. Some of them also check whether we're a passed hand, and then set an upper HCP limit. But this particular one doesn't do that check. It should be an easy fix.

[Bbradley62]

Personally, I think all calls (including passes) should get descriptions to help clarify some issues.

[barmar]

Lots of bids come from default rules that can apply in many different situations, and it's difficult to create explicit descriptions for them. We'd need to enumerate all the different possible auctions, so that we can make the descriptions fit the particular situation.

[georgi]

Some of the bids after Opener's reverse are having Forcing to X level - i.e. 3NT or 4Major or 5 Minor

1♣ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♣ - -- 4+ ♣; 8+ HCP; forcing to 3N

1♦ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♥ - -- 4+ ♥; 4+ ♠; 8+ HCP; forcing to 4♥

1♣ - 1♠
2♥ - 4♣ - Slam interest in ♣ -- 4+ ♣; 10+ HCP; 4+ controls; forcing to 5♣

But it might looks helpful to be mentioned how limited are the passed hands for sure.

Anyway, in general according to the last GIB v20 - only 2NT could have weak hand saying Artificial 2NT 7- HCP. It could hide even weak hand with major fit as can't bid it directly, but it will once partner continue.
So not good idea to be passed 2NT also.

Any other bid could be treated as GF, although not mentioned ( at the moment, hopefully all bids will be described in next update ).