[Flame]

In wj2000 it suggested to bid 1M over 1d with either a normal 6+ , or weak hand with support as a psych, i like this idea, because it makes it harder on the opponents.
The same idea can works after weak two, 2H-2S is forcing but can be bid with heart fit and not spade suit.
The nice thing about this, is when opener doesnt have support, opponents dont know i dont have the suit, and when he got support, and i take it back to the first suit, they know, but it doesnt help them because partner has the suit.
The main problem is partner can get us too far supporting.
1D-1S-3S is a problem, also 2H-2S-3S.
My idea is to play 2nt by opener for the 3M bid.
so 1D-1S-2NT will be the normal 3sp, same goes to 2H-2S-2NT.
2NT is not very importent bid, ppl use it to distinguege between 6 diamonds+3M and 3D+no 3M. and after 2H its even less importent.
There might be other better ways to handle this.
All this doesnt mean im going to play controlled psych, im going to alert the major bid.
What do you think ?

[inquiry]

I think this might quickly become illegal, like the second time you used it, or even discussing to use it. This is why I worry about the infamous...

2H-(x)-2S <<---- Just kidding, or
1H-(x)-1S <<---- clown bid....

Everyone knows these are frequent psyches in the wild... but if you do them a couple of times with the same partner, doesn't this become a legal problem?

[Flame]

inquiry, on Oct 22 2004, 12:53 PM, said:

if you do them a couple of times with the same partner, doesn't this become a legal problem?

I dont see anything illegal about this, i will alert the bid and explain it can be a weak hand with a fit to partner suit.
Illegal is to have information that your opponents dont, but i will give them all the info i have.

[DrTodd13]

The problem is that many times it is legal to psyche something but illegal to have an agreement to regularly bid that way. At least this is the case in the ACBL. Heck, in the ACBL it is even illegal to psyche certain bids. Don't get me started.

Todd

[Flame]

DrTodd13, on Oct 22 2004, 01:18 PM, said:

The problem is that many times it is legal to psyche something but illegal to have an agreement to regularly bid that way. At least this is the case in the ACBL. Heck, in the ACBL it is even illegal to psyche certain bids. Don't get me started.

Todd

ACBL has funny rules.

[hrothgar]

As I've noted many times before:

Its neigh impossible to differentiate between a mixed bidding strategy and a psyche...
Regulatory structures that refuse to recognize this basic fact are intrinsically doomed.

[jtfanclub]

hrothgar, on Oct 22 2004, 02:47 PM, said:

As I've noted many times before:

Its neigh impossible to differentiate between a mixed bidding strategy and a psyche...
Regulatory structures that refuse to recognize this basic fact are intrinsically doomed.

I disagree. A mixed bidding strategy you alert and explain to the opponents.
A psyche you neither alert nor explain.

[hrothgar]

jtfanclub, on Oct 22 2004, 11:03 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 22 2004, 02:47 PM, said:

As I've noted many times before:

Its neigh impossible to differentiate between a mixed bidding strategy and a psyche...
Regulatory structures that refuse to recognize this basic fact are intrinsically doomed.

I disagree. A mixed bidding strategy you alert and explain to the opponents.
A psyche you neither alert nor explain.

I think that you misunderstand my fundamental point:

I claim that "psyches" do not exist. The very concept of a psyche owes its existence to a very primative regulatory structure that doesn't want to address complexities like mixed strategies...

[jtfanclub]

hrothgar, on Oct 22 2004, 03:08 PM, said:

I think that you misunderstand my fundamental point:

I claim that "psyches" do not exist. The very concept of a psyche owes its existence to a very primative regulatory structure that doesn't want to address complexities like mixed strategies...

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. I no longer think I even understand what a mixed strategy is.

To me, a psych is an attempt to get a good board by fooling the oppoenents into thinking you have something other than you actually have. A mixed strategy includes destructive bids that don't describe your hand yet but may be used in conjunction with future bids to describe your hand. In a psyche, you say you have A but really have B, in a mixed strategy you have either A or B, and you tell the opponents this. The only difference between a psyche and a mixed strategy is in the explanation, but it's a very fundemental difference.

If you could help explain mixed strategy vs. psyches to me, or perhaps why I'm wrong about the difference, I'd appreciate it.

[EricK]

jtfanclub, on Oct 22 2004, 08:24 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 22 2004, 03:08 PM, said:

I think that you misunderstand my fundamental point:

I claim that "psyches" do not exist.  The very concept of a psyche owes its existence to a very primative regulatory structure that doesn't want to address complexities like mixed strategies...

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. I no longer think I even understand what a mixed strategy is.

To me, a psych is an attempt to get a good board by fooling the oppoenents into thinking you have something other than you actually have. A mixed strategy includes destructive bids that don't describe your hand yet but may be used in conjunction with future bids to describe your hand. In a psyche, you say you have A but really have B, in a mixed strategy you have either A or B, and you tell the opponents this. The only difference between a psyche and a mixed strategy is in the explanation, but it's a very fundemental difference.

If you could help explain mixed strategy vs. psyches to me, or perhaps why I'm wrong about the difference, I'd appreciate it.

To me a mixed strategy is one where the same hand may be bid in more than one way.

Something like: on this sort of hand I will raise to 4♥ 50% of the time, raise to 3♥ 30% of the time, and bid 1♠ 20% of the time.

Eric

[mikestar]

hrothgar, on Oct 22 2004, 08:08 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Oct 22 2004, 11:03 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 22 2004, 02:47 PM, said:

As I've noted many times before:

Its neigh impossible to differentiate between a mixed bidding strategy and a psyche...
Regulatory structures that refuse to recognize this basic fact are intrinsically doomed.

I disagree. A mixed bidding strategy you alert and explain to the opponents.
A psyche you neither alert nor explain.

I think that you misunderstand my fundamental point:

I claim that "psyches" do not exist. The very concept of a psyche owes its existence to a very primative regulatory structure that doesn't want to address complexities like mixed strategies...

Richard,

I agree with you about mixed stratagies but psyches do exist. If by explicit or implicit partnership agreement my 1S opener may be Axxx of spades and no other values, this is not a psyche, even though the regualtory bodies may wrongfully choose to call it that.

But if by explicit or implicit partnerahip agreement I cannot make such an opener but choose to do so anyway, such a bid is a psyche: a deliberate and gross misstatement of strength or shape.

You may choose to psyche as part of a mixed strategy of course--but since a true psyche by definition keeps partner as much in the dark as the opponents, you are really playing three-handed bridge.

This doesn't imply something is wrong with doing it--the tactical advantage may be worth having partner in the dark. But the term psyche refers to something real and distinguishable from the first case, which is four-handed bridge (though mostly wrongfully made illegal.)

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Oct 22 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 22 2004, 03:08 PM, said:

I think that you misunderstand my fundamental point:

I claim that "psyches" do not exist.  The very concept of a psyche owes its existence to a very primative regulatory structure that doesn't want to address complexities like mixed strategies...

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. I no longer think I even understand what a mixed strategy is.

To me, a psych is an attempt to get a good board by fooling the oppoenents into thinking you have something other than you actually have. A mixed strategy includes destructive bids that don't describe your hand yet but may be used in conjunction with future bids to describe your hand. In a psyche, you say you have A but really have B, in a mixed strategy you have either A or B, and you tell the opponents this. The only difference between a psyche and a mixed strategy is in the explanation, but it's a very fundemental difference.

If you could help explain mixed strategy vs. psyches to me, or perhaps why I'm wrong about the difference, I'd appreciate it.

You are right, but in Richard's way of bridge any bid can mean many things, 1sp show a hand with X spades or any hand which Richard think bidding 1spade will get his side a good result.
Now he can alret and explain thsi could be anything that i think is good to bid 1 spade with, but that wont help.
The problem with this approach is that partner has moe information then the opponents , because he know his partner style, and when style has serious effect on bidding, the extra information become not fair.

[luke warm]

jtfanclub, on Oct 22 2004, 10:03 PM, said:

A psyche you neither alert nor explain.

you can't alert a psych... it's impossible

[Free]

As far as I remember, you're NOT ALLOWED to play any controlled psych methods. I should look it up, but I'm pretty sure.
You are allowed to psych, but not to be able to control your psychs due to system agreements.

Btw, if you bid a suit which can be psych, and you support later on, opps should know how to handle this imo.

[Flame]

Free, on Oct 24 2004, 05:08 AM, said:

As far as I remember, you're NOT ALLOWED to play any controlled psych methods. I should look it up, but I'm pretty sure.
You are allowed to psych, but not to be able to control your psychs due to system agreements.

Btw, if you bid a suit which can be psych, and you support later on, opps should know how to handle this imo.

Free you cant controll a psych, but you can controll a "psych" if you read carfully you would understand, also i explain that when partner support the psych is discover but then it doesnt help them because they dont have a fit in the suit.

[jtfanclub]

Flame, on Oct 24 2004, 06:18 AM, said:

Free you cant controll a psych, but you can controll a "psych" if you read carfully you would understand, also i explain that when partner support the psych is discover but then it doesnt help them because they dont have a fit in the suit.

It doesn't sound like a psyche at all to me...it sounds like a very normal relay bid asking about strength and the suit bid. Unless the responses are very different from such a bid, to describe it otherwise is...dangerous.


What am I missing?