[mikestar]

I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting with a Big Club system using 4 card majors.

The opening bids:

1C = 17+
1D = 10-16, unbalanced with four+ diamonds, may have longer clubs.
1H = 10-16, unbalanced with four+ hearts, may have longer clubs.
1S = 10-16, unbalanced with four+ spades, may have longer clubs.
1N = 13-16, balanced, may have five card major. We pass balanced 11-12's.
2C = 10-16, six+ clubs, in principal one suited. (You may use judgement and ignore a fair four card diamond suit or xxxx in a major.)
2D+ = whatever you prefer.


Because the one of a suit openings are never balanced, an artificial NT rebid can be of use in clarifying opener's hand.

If passing balanced 12's gags you, you could play everthing 1 point lighter.

Vs. Precison, 1M auctions are less well defined but don't do badly. The 1S-2S on a possible 4-3 makes our LOTT decisions harder, but it also makes their decisions harder. One the whole I guestimate that the 1M openings in this system do about 85-90% as well as Precision.

1D is a very real diamond and the gain vs a nebuluous or even semi-nebulous Precison 1D is quite substantial.

2C is now rare and ridiculuously easy to handle when it happens. The 4 point NT range costs some accuracy, but this at least offset by the increased accuracy of biddding unbalnced hands.

I am still working on the response structrue and am incorporating some Robson-Segal ideas.

If there is interest, I will periodically post more details as the structure evolves.

[Flame]

It looks intresting, few comments.
You probebly should compare your system to 4 cards major with big club like blue club, or moskito, more then to precision.
I dont agree is that passing 12 bal, let you open 1 hcp lighter, its just the opposite, it lets you sterech your openings up to 16, and ur 1c to begin from 17 , because u can play 13-16 and not at 12-15.
Not opening 12 balanced is something most system desinger decided to avoid even with a big cost of having a neblous 1d, so i suspect it will have its price on your system too. so 12 balanced is your first system weakness.
The second weakness is your 1nt opening, it got larger then normal range, and also contain 5 card majors, comaring to other systems which use 2 points range and take out the 5 card major.
Oviously there are benefits to those 2 weaknesses, and you'll have to check if they outweight the weaknesses.
Good luck

[flytoox]

I like this idea. However, I think you need some relay structure with 4M 5c hand. Did you refer to Hammon's notes and do you have more natural structure?

[flytoox]

Another thing, if you play 1c=17+, then why not play 14-16 NT or 12-14NT and NT rebid showing 15-16, just like Acol? This may be more accurate and you dont need to hide five card major in this case.

[MickyB]

I think that you need to take some pressure off your NT ladder. The easiest way would be to drop the 1♣ opening to 16+, then play a 12-15 or 13-15 NT. In my strong club+5cM system I play a 12-15 NT, with 11-13 bal with 4♦ opening 1♦. The other way would be to play Carrot Club: 1♣ 11-13 bal or any 17+, or if you preferred, 12-14 bal or any 18+.

Carrot Club uses the same 1♦, 1♥ and 1♠ openings as you suggest, so it may well be worth looking it up for some ideas for continuations. I would suggest 1♦:1M, 1NT as either both minors with longer ♦ or a max single suiter. Over a 5 card 1♥ opener I play something like Kaplan Inversion - 1♠ = Forcing NT, 0-4♠ then 1NT rebid = 5♥4♠, and 1♥:1NT = 5+♠. That should work fine here as well.

There is a lot of value in 1M openings (nearly) always being either 4 cards or 6. You can show a single raise on 3 or 4 card support, making it hard for the opps to use the LAW without causing yourself the same problems. Something like this (which I haven't tested!)

1♣ strong
1♦ unbal, no 4 card major
1♥ and 1♠: either 4 cards, bal (11-13) or with a longer minor, or 6+cards
1NT 12-15, if 12-13 usually no 4 card major

You can then either put major 2 suiters into the 1♥ and 1♠ openings and play 2♣ and 2♦ as 4+bid suit, 5 cards in an unspecified major; Or make 2♣ show both majors, 2♦ multi, 2M = 5 bid suit, 4+ in an unspecified minor.

[Flame]

flytoox, on Oct 23 2004, 10:08 AM, said:

Another thing, if you play 1c=17+, then why not play 14-16 NT or 12-14NT and NT rebid showing 15-16, just like Acol? This may be more accurate and you dont need to hide five card major in this case.

I think the core of this system, is every suit opening show unbalanced, this is what uniqe this system and changing it would just make it another system.

[jtfanclub]

mikestar, on Oct 23 2004, 08:30 AM, said:

I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting with a Big Club system using 4 card majors.

The opening bids:

1C = 17+
1D = 10-16, unbalanced with four+ diamonds, may have longer clubs.
1H = 10-16, unbalanced with four+ hearts, may have longer clubs.
1S = 10-16, unbalanced with four+ spades, may have longer clubs.
1N = 13-16, balanced, may have five card major. We pass balanced 11-12's.
2C = 10-16, six+ clubs, in principal one suited. (You may use judgement and ignore a fair four card diamond suit or xxxx in a major.)
2D+ = whatever you prefer.


Because the one of a suit openings are never balanced, an artificial NT rebid can be of use in clarifying opener's hand.

If passing balanced 12's gags you, you could play everthing 1 point lighter.

Vs. Precison, 1M auctions are less well defined but don't do badly. The 1S-2S on a possible 4-3 makes our LOTT decisions harder, but it also makes their decisions harder. One the whole I guestimate that the 1M openings in this system do about 85-90% as well as Precision.

1D is a very real diamond and the gain vs a nebuluous or even semi-nebulous Precison 1D is quite substantial.

2C is now rare and ridiculuously easy to handle when it happens. The 4 point NT range costs some accuracy, but this at least offset by the increased accuracy of biddding unbalnced hands.

I am still working on the response structrue and am incorporating some Robson-Segal ideas.

If there is interest, I will periodically post more details as the structure evolves.

Because I'm a HCP counter, I would think 12 balanced across 11 balanced is fine to pass, but 12 across 12 is not.

It may be worth dropping the values by a point in first and second seat, and using them as listed in 3rd and 4th.

It seems like there's only a few shapes that get opened 1M with a four card major (4441 singleton diamond, 5431 with five clubs), all with 4+ clubs. It seems like you could handle these either with something similar to the old Precision 2♦ method or the 1NT forcing response to 1M, where 2♣ shows 4+ clubs and exactly 4 cards in the major.

All in all to me it doesn't seem that different from Precision that I expect any problems with it.

[luke warm]

that's close to what i'm studying, mike... 1c is 16+ balanced, 17+ unbalanced with 4+ card M, 18+ if unbalanced and minors.. 1nt is 12-15

the part i've grown to like are the 1d, 1h, 1s bids... they show 4+ pcs, 2 suited hands, 11-16, usually canape (unless clubs are the 2nd suit, then maybe clubs are shorter)... 2c is 3 suited 11-16... 2d, 2h, 2s are one suited with 6+, 11-16

the 2 bids are the ones that took the most getting used to, mostly on philosophical grounds... but i can see the advantage of having all opening bids except 1c showing the hand type

[GijsH]

This is like a system played by some top players in the East of my home country The Netherlands. They play it very agressively though:

opening (4card majors) 9/10-15 vul (8/9-14 not vul)
1D: denies a 4card major
1NT: variable, e.g. 1st/2nd pos, not vul: 9-11!
1C: 16+ vul (15+ not vul)
also many fitbids ala Robson/Segal
1C-1D, 1H: is relay with any 22+ hand

I have the systembook in Dutch, feel free to ask if you are interested.

[Free]

The system seems a lot like MOSCITO, without the transfer openings and with a lot stronger 1♣.

Using 1♣ as 17+ is imo too high! Make it 16+ and it's a lot better, make it 15+ and you get to the borderline...
First of all, opening 1♣ with 17+ HCP, your partner has an average of 7.67 HCP, which means you'll be in a GF auction most of the time. This also means that if opps are a bit smart, they'll intervene as much as possible! I have a system where I can intervene with EVERY hand, and I had many success in my local clubs where they also play 17+ 1♣ openings!
If you lower your 1♣ to 16+, then partner will have an average of 8 HCP, still GF. Make it 15+ and you'll have a partner with 8.33 HCP average, which means you might be able to make heavy penalty doubles with nothing to play yourselves

The lower you make your 1♣, the more accuracy you get for ALL other openings. You can play 1NT as 11-14, or 12-14, covering your other limited opening bids, so you can keep you unbalanced openings.

Using all 1-openings as unbalanced has the advantage that opener can also rebid NT with a 3-suited hand which is very short in partner's suit

4-card Majors is not a big disadvantage imo. You just raise more agressive, and opps still have to guess if you have an 8 card fit or not. However, if you open with a 5332 1NT, you'll have a 7-card fit most of the time if you support 1M with a 3 card, so it loses a lot of it's preemptive effect.
Richard made some statistics about this, and it seems if you open with all 5-card Majors 1M, you'll have about 52% of the time a 5+ card, and 48% of the time exact 4 cards.

[mikestar]

Actually, play it 2 points lighter and it pretty much is a GCC-legal form of Moscito. As for the 1C miminum, what Free considers a disadvantage I consider an advantage--I believe that having a probable game helps cope with intervention--we likely know "how high" and can focus on "where".

In all big club systems, the 1C is the most vulneable part. A 17 point 1C will be much less frequent that a 15 point 1C--isn't this an advantage unless you set the minimum so high that your limit bids aren't limited enough? (Romex's Dynamic MT shades into this territory.)

Personally, I think the 12 bal opposite 12 bal problem is better handled by allowing 1 of a suit on a balanced hand 3rd and 4th seat. (Perhaps lowering 1NT to 11-14 and having the balanced possiblility strong? -- worth trying this in first and second?) Here slam is flat impossible and game fairly unlikely, so the greater amibiguity in opener's shape is less important. But remember, my thinking is colored by a long history of passing balanced 12's and getting good results doing it. This system is still playable with a 12-15 1NT and a 16 point 1C.

Luke's system is interesting and looks to be quite effeicent in constructive auctions, but I wanted something that leaves 2D+ available for preempts.

[MickyB]

IMO opening 4 card majors when you have longer clubs doesn't make it a form of Moscito.

Your results when opening a 17+ club will undoubtedly be much better than when you open the same hands with a 15+ club. I suspect 16+ would be best, your 1 of a suit openings won't benefit as much from being limited to 14 points as Moscito's do.

Assuming you don't mind too much whether you play 1NT or 3NT with a combined 24 count, I would suggest 12-15 in first+second and 14-16 in third+fourth. 11-13 bals can open one of a suit opposite a passed partner, looking to pick up the part-score and an occasional major suit game. 13-15/16 in both seats would work too.

[hrothgar]

mikestar, on Oct 24 2004, 04:38 PM, said:

Actually, play it 2 points lighter and it pretty much is a GCC-legal form of Moscito.

In its "modern" form, MOSCITO is distinquished by:

A majors first opening style
Light and limited opening bids
Relays with strong hands
Transfer opening bids

"GCC legal" MOSCITO an oxymoron...

[mikestar]

hrothgar, on Oct 24 2004, 11:12 PM, said:

mikestar, on Oct 24 2004, 04:38 PM, said:

Actually, play it 2 points lighter and it pretty much is a GCC-legal form of Moscito.

In its "modern" form, MOSCITO is distinquished by:

A majors first opening style
Light and limited opening bids
Relays with strong hands
Transfer opening bids

"GCC legal" MOSCITO an oxymoron...

Point well taken. It is not entirely dissimilar, but the likeness is not good. It is rather like Schenken with a weaker NT.