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Non-Serious 3NT I got hammered by two experts

#21 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-January-08, 10:26

View PostCascade, on 2012-January-06, 12:32, said:

The suit symbols are not working in this auction for me.

Does anyone else see that?

I checked some other posts and I get the correct symbols in those other posts.


I see no problem at all.


Since people here like fancy conventions this one is an obvious 6KCBW position. I never played kickback nor serious 3NT but I wouldn´t either miss this grand I think.
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#22 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-08, 15:03

Two things I have learned from these discussions of 3NT are:

1) What we use 3NT to show in suit G.F. auctions we should never call by any of those names, and it is a minority use for 3NT.
2) We like how we use it.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#23 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-09, 00:02

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-January-08, 15:03, said:

Two things I have learned from these discussions of 3NT are:

1) What we use 3NT to show in suit G.F. auctions we should never call by any of those names, and it is a minority use for 3NT.
2) We like how we use it.


For the benefit of the uninformed (me), could you kindly expand on your point 1 above?
1.) If this is the minority use for 3NT, then what is the majority use?
2.) It appears that you use 3NT for a different meaning. Kindly elaborate.

These forums contain a wealth of information for anyone making the effort to read the topics posted. I certainly hope to continue improving as a player.

I have posted a question on the meaning of abbreviations in the "General Bridge Discussion" forum as well. If you know the answer, kindly help me there as well.

Thank you.
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#24 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-09, 04:09

View Post32519, on 2012-January-09, 00:02, said:

For the benefit of the uninformed (me), could you kindly expand on your point 1 above?
1.) If this is the minority use for 3NT, then what is the majority use?
2.) It appears that you use 3NT for a different meaning. Kindly elaborate.

I simply meant that people use the terms, "Serious", "non-serious", and "frivolous" (supposedly the same as NS) differently than we do. They are ademant that their definitions are accurate/standard; so be it.

We like to use 3NT when a game is forced, either of us might have extras, and a major suit is established for trump -- as our first clue to partner that the hand we hold is hugely above previously stated value; and use what we previously called a courtesy cue to suggest cooperation in case PARTNER might be the one with the extras.

When one hand has shown to be within a fairly small range, however we reverse the meanings of the two "tries" in order to save room and avoid leaking specific information if it won't be needed.

We are comfortable using these methods because we have solid understanding of when they apply, and have other inferences from bids not made but available at the point where 3NT could be used. Others point out that this is not how NS or "S" is defined, so we will continue along our merry way without having a name for what we do.

BTW, one of the reasons our continuations in G.F. auctions are different from others' is because we don't use J2N, and our 2/1 auctions contain a lot more major suit fit situations than "normal".
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#25 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-January-09, 07:56

My take:
The South hand is a 1NT opener for many.
As others have pointed out the auction only makes sense if 3C showed extras. The opponents should have explained this imho.
The 3C raise is interesting in another aspect in that it would usually show at least 4 in normal 2/1. It might be that they are playing a version of fred's method where balanced GF hands can start with 2NT. Again, if this were the case then some sort of explanation would have been in order.
I do not understand why North signed off after 5C - it seems blindingly obvious to ask about the K at this point, either by a specific king ask or a specific suit ask. Once South shows AKxxx and AKx(x) North can count to 13.
Serious and Frivolous slam tries are different according to whether we are limited or partner is limited or we are both unlimited. You improve your slam accuracy notably if you can manage to limit one or both hands before reaching this point.
It is more common to play Serious 3NT than Frivolous. I would guess that Serious or natural would be the most common meaning for 3NT in such auctions depending upon the quality of the player you ask.
Slams almost always score well in low-level clubs, even obvious small slams where 7NT is laydown.

There are several possible auctions for my system here but this is the most probable. The structure over 2D is new so good practise to play with :).

1C = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1S = no 4 card major, GF
2D = 15-17 bal
... - 2S = puppet to 2NT
2N
... - 3C = 5 card major?
3H = 5 hearts
... - 3S = agrees hearts
3N = no spade control
... - 4C = club control?
4D = yes, but not diamonds
... - 4S = RKCB for hearts
5C = 0 or 3
... - 6C = club ask
6N = CK, no CQ
... - 7N
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#26 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2012-January-09, 18:45

After a 1Nt opening, for north to bypass 4H is a bit risky. Everytime south will have 2/3 pts wasted in the pointed suit slam has very little play and 5H isnt safe, having HHx in S or D is much more likely than having HH in clubs. Kxx,Axxxx,KQxx,Axx etc. Even after finding a H fit and a club control my guess is that both 6H and 6C are close to 50%.

For the fun of it i did a sim for Zel bidding. South has 15-17 bal with 5H, no S or D control but a C control. 5H will go down 9% and 6H is 57%. Being able to deny a D control here is a great incentive to go foward but without this information bypassing 4H is risky (the K of diamond isnt a good card for slam since if you have it, they will lead S most of the time). Once you made your move for 6 its stupid not to check for the K of clubs since you can count 13 tricks. in Imps it might even be a good idea to bid 7 without it since its likely a 5 or 7 hand.
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#27 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 03:55

After a 1NT opening, how about:

1NT-3 (15-17 / nat slam try)
4-4 (picture bid / cue)
5-5 (signoff / cue)
5-6 (cue / cue)
7NT (knowing that the long heart is the 13th trick)

I think a 1NT opening is wrong on this hand, though, even if it's supposed to be compulsory on a 5332 15-count. I'd open 1 and then lie about my shape.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#28 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 06:21

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-January-06, 11:55, said:

Everyone seems to have missed the obvious explanation - that going past two hearts already showed extras. Then south indeed has no extras for his bidding.

Are we talking about the same hand that makes slam opposite Axx Qxx Ax Qxxxx?

If you think non-serious 3NT is the right bid with this hand, you are either playing an enormously wide range for that bid (i.e. you won't have many hands that can make a serious cuebid but are not strong enough to drive to the 5-level), or you are not evaluating this hand right.
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#29 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 09:52

Quote

1NT-3♣ (15-17 / nat slam try)


Sweet, but usually you are stuck with puppet stayman or something like that.
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#30 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 09:55

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-January-10, 09:52, said:

Sweet, but usually you are stuck with puppet stayman or something like that.

You might be :)

Edit: Actually, what I implied about my preferred methods isn't strictly true. With some partners I can bid 1NT-3 as a natural slam try without shortage, but in my most serious partnership I'd be at the 4-level, after a series of puppets. Maybe opener could bid 5 over that.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#31 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 10:35

Quote

You might be


I wouldn't be. I think auto opening 1NT with 5M-3-2-2 is inferior style so I don't play it :)
Even if I somehow were then I think puppet stayman is not worth it and it's better to ignore possibility of 5M altogether, especially at imps.
I am just saying, that it seems that many (most ?) American pros auto open 1NT with 5M-3-3-2 and has 3C as puppet.
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#32 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 11:26

View Post32519, on 2012-January-08, 06:01, said:

I thought they were good for 1 very simple reason. 14 tables played in 4 making 13. 1 table played in 6 making 13. These were the only guys to bid the slam.

When you put "by 2 experts" in the topic title, people assume your opps are actual experts, not some personal opinion formed from 1 deal. Beginners sometimes make ridiculous (fancy looking) choices which turn out ok and end up scoring a top. That 1 lucky hand is no reason to consider them experts though. ;)
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#33 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 13:58

Is it actually right to make a slam try with the north hand over 1N? I'd probably have gone 1N-3N.

Anyways, agree it is a huge fail to not play 7 after opening 1H.
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#34 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-January-10, 14:00

32519, if I were to learn anything from this hand, it would be how awful the final 6H bid is. North knows that his side holds all the keycards. What can it hurt to ask for kings? If partner shows the club king, you have 13 tricks.
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