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Non-Serious 3NT I got hammered by two experts

#1 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 10:08



These two guys showed how to bid good slams. They were playing 2/1.

1 Natural 5-card suit
2 2/1 Game Force
3 Club fit
3 Heart fit (now they had a fit in 2 suits)
3NT Non-Serious (no extra values)
4 Kickback for
5 3 Keycards
6

One other pair played in 6. The rest played in 4 makeing all 13 tricks.
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#2 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 10:17

South is too strong for 3NT imo, if he bid a serious 4C instead, getting to grand should be trivial.
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#3 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 10:23

What's so special about this? It's just good hand evaluation by North.

Besides, some people play that 3C shows extras. In that context South has absolutely nothing to spare over 3H, hence his frivolous 3NT bid.
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#4 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 11:06

I have AKx in partner's suit and AKJT9 in mine and this is a non-serious try? Wowsers.

Frankly, I'm surprised that North makes another move over 3N - opposite a true non-serious hand, I'm not sure the 5 level is safe at all.

Furthermore, once partner shows me we have all the keys and the trump Q, and I can't make a try for 7?

I would feel very bad if I couldn't find the grand in any of my partnerships.
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#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 11:30

View PostPhil, on 2012-January-06, 11:06, said:

I have AKx in partner's suit and AKJT9 in mine and this is a non-serious try? Wowsers.

Frankly, I'm surprised that North makes another move over 3N - opposite a true non-serious hand, I'm not sure the 5 level is safe at all.

Furthermore, once partner shows me we have all the keys and the trump Q, and I can't make a try for 7?

I would feel very bad if I couldn't find the grand in any of my partnerships.

Again we have disagreement on definitions. For us, serious and non-serious are both "tries".

The partnership is better placed already by the serendipity of not having opened 1NT. South's range, thus far, is still 12 with 4-card support for clubs up to just short of a 2C opener.

The given hand is certainly short of a "serious" 4C, but clearly within non-serious 3NT for us. Non-serious non-try with nothing extra would bid 4H.

After non-serious describing basically what South has, how could North possibly not continue? North has controls in the sides and the fillers in the two-suit fit.

4NT 6-key RKC should allow North to count tricks.
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#6 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 11:55

Everyone seems to have missed the obvious explanation - that going past two hearts already showed extras. Then south indeed has no extras for his bidding.
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 11:59

Aqua - here's the way I look at it and how we do things in my partnerships. I would also assume this with an expert partner that is up to speed on 21st century methods.

Opener's hand is broken into four separate categories.

1. A total POS. Bad controls, and I might have been passing a SF forcing 1N response if I were balanced. This hand does not cue bid over 3. It does not make a NS try. It signs off. This says to partner, "I have a minimum and lousy controls. If you move past game, do so at your own risk".

2. A useful minimum. This is what NS was invented for. Opposite the right 17, or the right 5 or 6 loser hand, this hand type has potential. I'd say the hand tends to have a high loser count, but good controls, but this needn't be the case. Something like Ax KTxxx xx AJxx is right, even though it clearly does not have 'extras'.

3. Extra values. This is normally defined as an A or a K more than #2, but this isn't a hard and fast rule. The OP hand squarely fits within this definition. If one makes a serious try, it does not automatically force to slam. With the OP hand, I would feel very unlucky if slam was not at least fair if we had sufficient controls in the off suits and enough keys. I do agree that 6 ace is useful in this sequence.

4. The nuts. This hand will cue bid, and may be close to a slam force. It may take control, or it may hope partner does. In either case, it is extension of three.

By the way, I'm guessing you would not make a NS try with Ax KTxxx xx AJxx, if you would with the OP hand. I would kindly suggest that you've simply incorporated NS as a "hand that doesn't want to force to slam, but a hand that wants to show extras". Many bridge players in So Cal still play that a cue bid in a GF auction 'shows extras', and you are now casting these hands into NS auctions. But this is not how it is played in the mainstream. A NS hand just shows a minimum, and "I don't hate my hand".

Quote

The partnership is better placed already by the serendipity of not having opened 1NT. South's range, thus far, is still 12 with 4-card support for clubs up to just short of a 2C opener.


What the heck does this mean? Did we imply we were balanced at some stage?
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#8 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 12:00

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-January-06, 11:55, said:

Everyone seems to have missed the obvious explanation - that going past two hearts already showed extras. Then south indeed has no extras for his bidding.


Where does the OP say this?
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#9 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 12:32

View Post32519, on 2012-January-06, 10:08, said:





The suit symbols are not working in this auction for me.

Does anyone else see that?

I checked some other posts and I get the correct symbols in those other posts.
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 13:26

They look fine to me.
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#11 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 13:44

View PostPhil, on 2012-January-06, 12:00, said:

Where does the OP say this?


It doesnt say it, but as pointed out, the use of the NS and the tries that followed it appear idiosyncratic if opener never showed extras. If he did the whole auction makes sense. It is also a very common treatment in 2/1. It is standard among the circles I play in.

You are inferring that it is the "non-serious" description that is wrong, I am inferring that the "3c" description is wrong.

More generally, there are three bids in this auction that could either show extras or be limited: 3C, 3H and 3N

Its a very normal treatment to play that 3c shows extras, a less common but not unknown treatement that 3H shows extras, and 4H would be a "Bad" hand with 3 card support. If on the other hand 3H was limited, then 3N would be automatically upgraded, as who makes slam moves with minimum opposite a minimum. Its an even less common treatement to play 3N as showing extras, but fewer extras than a four level cuebid. As you pointed out what does he need for a cue bid if he has shown no extras and 3N was NS.
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#12 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 15:13

A couple of observations.
-- 2 may not guarantee 5 cards.

-- Thus, 3 normally should show at least 4 cards.

-- The auction thru 3 shows a double-fit, so Aquaman's mention of 6-Ace RKC is valid.
( 3 should be 3 cards but could be 4 cards as shown the the recent "Splinter, Jacoby2NT..." thread here ).

-- Eventho South has "extras" in terms of hcp, s/he doesn't have a or Ctrl to bid over 3....
and a 4C bid could be interpreted as RKC... so is essentially forced to bid 3NT! ( waiting for cues ? and definitely not to play in this double-fit auction ).

-- Should 4C! or 4S! be 6 Ace RKC ? ( I've seen a Kit Woolsey reference use 4D! as 6 Ace RKC in a / double-fit auction).

-- Regardless who takes control with RKC, neither partner can count to a sure 13 tricks, and thus, settle in a small slam.
( North can count to a sure 12 tricks, but South can only count to a sure 11 -- if North's suit was only 4 cards ).
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#13 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 15:34

View Post32519, on 2012-January-06, 10:08, said:




Using my homegrown system:
South North
1H - 2C! ( GF )
2NT! ( shows "extras", 15+ )* - 3H
4C! ( Ctrl cue ) - 4S! ( kickback-RKC for Hts )
4NT! ( 0/3 ) - 5D! ( 2nd step = K-ask; 1st step would be Ht-Q-ask )
6C ( Cl-King only; denying Sp and Diam K's - PASS (more confident about 12 tricks with Cl as trump; not sure about 5 Ht tricks ).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* A 2nd way to bid 2NT would show a minimum opener:
1H - 2C!
2H! ( artificial, any minimum) - 2S! ( asks for further description )
2NT! ( minimum and no 4 cards Spades )
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#14 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 16:02

to the OP, i'm afraid the standard of play ust be extremely low at your club if getting to 6H with 7NT cold is an outright top.
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#15 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 17:10

Quote

to the OP, i'm afraid the standard of play ust be extremely low at your club if getting to 6H with 7NT cold is an outright top.


I suspect many very good pairs would end up in 3NT here by sequence:
1NT - 3NT or some kind of puppet stayman inserted.

Don't be so quick to criticize :)
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#16 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-January-06, 21:01

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-January-06, 17:10, said:

I suspect many very good pairs would end up in 3NT here by sequence:
1NT - 3NT or some kind of puppet stayman inserted.

Don't be so quick to criticize :)


really? i would expect the very good norths in these 'very good pairs' to make a slam try with a 13 count and a 6 card suit opposite a strong NT
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#17 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-07, 15:48

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-January-06, 11:30, said:

The partnership is better placed already by the serendipity of not having opened 1NT.

View PostPhil, on 2012-January-06, 11:59, said:

What the heck does this mean? Did we imply we were balanced at some stage?

Well, I think it means a lot.

Starting with: opener was unprepared for most any response except a natural 2C, but that one good thing happened ---putting responder in the driver's seat able to count tricks in a simple 6 keycard auction.

Next: If we had opened 1NT, it is unlikely responder will be able to know about the fifth heart and/or opener will be able to take over for the counting by discovering the rounded queens.

Also, we clearly did not imply we were balanced at any stage. Quite the contrary; a NS 3NT seems needed with only an Ace above a cooperating minimum (this hand surely qualifies) and would by inference be at least 5-4 in the two suits (or we have a NT opening). NS is needed for that range, IMO because we could also have a much bigger hand. But, as luck would have it, responder doesn't need that inference.

Hence, a lot of serendipity.
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#18 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2012-January-08, 03:58

I don't understand why you think these guys are good. I would play 7NT, because the North hand can count to 13 (6+5+2 Aces). After 5 he can bid 5 asking for Kings (not interested in Q otherwise bid 5) and opener can show his K.

And how the hell can South bid 3NT??? It doesn't get much better than that imo. 4 would make it very easy: no control , control , lets see what partner does. If he doesn't have a control he bids 4 last train, after which you can play an easy 4. Otherwise partner can blacky.
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#19 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-January-08, 04:44

If 3NT was really non serious, then this is a lol. Sorry! I can't believe it was NS!
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#20 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-January-08, 06:01

View PostFree, on 2012-January-08, 03:58, said:

I don't understand why you think these guys are good.


I thought they were good for 1 very simple reason. 14 tables played in 4 making 13. 1 table played in 6 making 13. These were the only guys to bid the slam. Who knows how long they have been playing Serious/Frivolous 3NT? Maybe they were a pick-up pair. Maybe these two guys are like me. Whenever experimenting with a new toy, there is always the learning curve. In the beginning one is hesitant, taking instead the safe option. Once you have gained enough confidence with a new toy, exploring for the grand will become easier.

I posted the hand for the benefit of non-experts. When they see how the auction unfolded, perhaps they too will be encouraged to experiment with Serious/Frivolous 3NT.
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