[Antrax]

Matchpoints, diagram is accurate

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Is this a 3♥ wtp?

[aguahombre]

This might be the wrong forum for my answer, but IMO, there should be two ways of competing in hearts on this auction, and a third bid to show a competitive hand with just long clubs.

3C and 3H should be strength-showing bids; 2NT (clubs) and Double (hearts) could be merely competitive. The answer to the OP question is yes we want to compete to 3H, but we don't want partner to think we are inviting game; and we need agreements in order to accomplish that.

[wank]

yes it's a WTP 3♥

[Antrax]

So, to answer "wtp", I devalued ♠KJ when the suit was overcalled on my left. That left me with what seemed to me like a minimum opening, and I didn't want to compete to the 3-level on an 8-card fit. Which of these considerations is wrong or was taken too strongly?

[the hog]

No it is certainly NOT a wtp 3H. As Agh posted, you want to compete, but the overcall has devalued your hand. You really do need 2 ways of competing here. A 3H bid for me now shows a better hand. In my partnerships we would bid this via a good/bad 2NT. Bidding 3H on this and better hands will make it hard for pd to evaluate.

[gwnn]

Antrax, I usually bid 3♥ here on all weak no trumps with 4 hearts unless I have 3433 with points spread everywhere. I think it's worth stretching to show support here. I had this dilemma a few years ago and posted such a hand, now I just close my eyes and do it.

edit: you are helping partner a lot by showing support. and the law actually says that usually it is right to bid 3 over 2 if both sides have an 8-card fit, not to mention the fact that here actually either side may have a 9-card fit (partner might have doubled on a 5-card suit but less than 9 hcp)

[P_Marlowe]

Given the wastage in spades, this is certainly not a WTP.

Looking at the LoTT - Most likely both sides have only a 8 card fit (*),
i.e. 16 total tricks, and my spade values are a neg. adjustment factor.
Hence the likelyhood is relativly high, that neither 2H and 3H will
make, and even 2H may go down.

Hence pass is ok.

That being said - I guess, I would bid 3H.

In the end be consistent, know how much you require for a neg. X in this
position, at those colors.

(*) Given my KJ in spades, we can discard the case, that the 1S overcall was
based on a 4 carder - i.e. we dont need to consider the scenario, that they
have only a 7 card fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Just saw gwnn refer to the law as well, but he comes to a different conclusion.
To improve your judgement in competitive auctions the law is a helpful utillity,
but it needs experience.
Bidding has the big advantage, that you give them the last guess, and if you end
up playing 3H - defence is harder than declarer play.
If you play with a partner, who wont reopen agressivly, if 2S comes around to him,
than this would be another factor in favor of bidding 3H.

[billw55]

At a sectional a year or so ago, my team played against some multiple national champions who were playing it as a tuneup for their systems - getting the kinks out, they said. Anyway, one of them offered a nugget of advice, that devaluing honors in the opponents bid suits during the auction was a big mistake. I still wonder how true that is, especially on deals like this.

[jmcw]

aguahombre, on 2011-December-28, 01:34, said:

This might be the wrong forum for my answer, but IMO, there should be two ways of competing in hearts on this auction, and a third bid to show a competitive hand with just long clubs.

3C and 3H should be strength-showing bids; 2NT (clubs) and Double (hearts) could be merely competitive. The answer to the OP question is yes we want to compete to 3H, but we don't want partner to think we are inviting game; and we need agreements in order to accomplish that.

Nailed it.
It is so important to have a couple of different ways to show a raise.
If this is a 3♥WTP, then what would you bid if the ♠K changed to the ♣K.

[mike777]

Antrax, on 2011-December-28, 01:23, said:

Matchpoints, diagram is accurate

---

Is this a 3♥ wtp?

As a B/I I thought this is a very difficult problem.

1) LOTT seems to say Pass: 8+8-1(for spade holding)=15 total tricks, dont bid 3/2. If they make 2s we go for minus 500 down 2x in 3h.

2 Fought the Law(FTL) says 13-sst-whcp=seems to say pass also.

13=total tricks
sst=combined holding in our two shortest suits between us and pard 3+2=5
whcp=working hcp between our two hands...I estimate around 21 so whcp=o adjustment

13-5-0=8 tricks for us.

I estimate 13-5-1 for opp so they have 7 tricks.

edit: also perhaps x is an option here?


But I note all the other posters bid to 3h either directly or indirectly so I hope to hear more analysis.

[gwnn]

btw I suggested at one point a 2NT artificial bid that meant a good 3H bid in various situations, I think the criterion was that one of us showed 4+ hearts and opponents bid up to 2S. situations like

1C-p-1H-2S
p-p-2N

1D-1S-x-2S
2N

all qualified, but not

1H-2S-2NT (I think). if I still was good at looking for my threads I could find it.

[nigel_k]

3♥. If you were bare minimum, pass with four card support would be ok. But this hand is better than that.

The spade holding should not be discounted too much. If you held Axx and partner xx there would be one spade loser for your side and one for their side if they declare, for a total of two. Likewise if you held xxx opposite xx there would be two total losers. And KJx is also likely to mean two total losers. Even if partner has Qx there could easily be a useful club pitch.

[rogerclee]

I also like 3H but fwiw I think fred has said in the past that he thinks most min balanced hands with 4 hearts should pass on this auction, barring any method to specifically show that handtype, which gnasher and csaba like. Might have been only at IMPs though.

[Siegmund]

It's a Good/Bad 2NT auction with my reg p -- 2NT is essentially never natural for us, once the opponents bid and raise -- and I use it to show a "bad" 3H. (gwnn's method where 2NT is Good and the immediate bid is Bad might be better, but we never bothered working out the details of when to switch the meanings.)

Lacking such a method, with partner as a passed hand, it's right on the cusp, and I can understand passing, even if I might bid 3H myself.

[gwnn]

Kindly note that gwnn's method was 2NT is specifically a good Heart bid, and nothing else (not a 3m bid). I don't like good/bad whereupon 2NT could be a bunch of different hands.

[han]

I would bid 3H.