[straube]

So you're playing a team game, 1st chair and both red.

Kx xx x QJT98xxx

What do you do and why?

Side question...if you open 3C and partner bids 3N do you pass?

[gwnn]

If you feel like pulling 3NT, it is probably because you should have opened 4 to begin with.

edit: in this case, I think 3♣ is clearly too feeble.

[EricK]

I open 3♣ and pass 3NT.

In general, if I am not prepared to pass 3NT, then I don't open at the 3 level.

[CSGibson]

Make a consistent decision. If you decide that this is a 3C opener, the main reason for doing so is to keep 3N in play, so you should pass. Personally, I think at equal vulnerability, 1st seat, that 4C is right.

[mike777]

1) pass because of Ks
2) pass now. but then I did not have this problem.

[Fluffy]

open 3♣ and pass 3NT, I don´t mind pulling 3NT with some hands but even opposite ♣Kx we can get in with ♠K. With ♠Qx ♣QJ10xxxxx I might open 3♣ and bid 4♣ over 3NT.

[Phil]

4♣. Partner needs the perfect club holding or double stops in both red suits for 3N to be right.

[Cascade]

Phil, on 2011-December-23, 14:35, said:

4♣. Partner needs the perfect club holding or double stops in both red suits for 3N to be right.

Do you mean initially or over 3NT. I assumed you were answering the first question but then wasn't sure when I read your comment.

4♣ initially for me. Perhaps a little light but 3♣ seems wrong in that it is too induce partner to the wrong spot.

[Cyberyeti]

EricK, on 2011-December-23, 12:46, said:

I open 3♣ and pass 3NT.

In general, if I am not prepared to pass 3NT, then I don't open at the 3 level.

I agree with this with a couple of exceptions.

If I want to open 4♣, but can't because that shows hearts, I might consider opening 3♣ and removing 3N. This sort of applies here, I would open 4♣.

If I have some 0175 I might open 3♦ and bid 4 or 5♣ over 3N.

[MrAce]

I lean towards 4♣ but i am not against 3♣.

If i opened 3♣, of course i would pass 3NT.

[Phil]

Wayne, upthread someone suggested that they don't like 4m because it bypasses 3N. My point is that papartner needs a special hand for 3N so its north worth the underbid.

[straube]

Cascade, on 2011-December-23, 16:00, said:

Do you mean initially or over 3NT. I assumed you were answering the first question but then wasn't sure when I read your comment.

4♣ initially for me. Perhaps a little light but 3♣ seems wrong in that it is too induce partner to the wrong spot.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[Cascade]

Phil, on 2011-December-23, 18:43, said:

Wayne, upthread someone suggested that they don't like 4m because it bypasses 3N. My point is that papartner needs a special hand for 3N so its north worth the underbid.

I think i agree with this. If we can't open 4minor with a queen high suit because we are worried about 3NT I don't know when we do.

[FrancesHinden]

mike777, on 2011-December-23, 13:03, said:

1) pass because of Ks
2) pass now. but then I did not have this problem.

Mike, you say here (and in another thread) that you wouldn't pre-empt with a side King. I guess you wouldn't with a side ace either?
That is way too restrictive: if you follow this rule, then 1) you will not pre-empt often enough, and 2) you will make life incredibly easy for the opposition when they play the hand after you do pre-empt.

It's true that a side honours are negative features which might tip the balance on a marginal hand, but here you have a very weak hand and an 8-card suit with good pips - passing is just giving in.

Kx
Kx
Qx
10xxxxxx

is not a pre-empt, but

Kx
x
xxx
KJ10xxxx certainly is, at any vulnerability

{p.s. it's the same when you have a 4-card major: it's a holding that should put you off, but not stop you.
KQxx
x
x
Jxxxxxx

isn't a pre-empt, but
9xxx
x
x
KQJxxxx

definitely is, again at any vulnerability}

In both of my examples, the position and vulnerability will affect whether I open 3 or 4 (or 5), not whether i open.

[rogerclee]

You 3C bidders must get dealt way more 8 card suits than me.

[EricK]

rogerclee, on 2011-December-24, 04:56, said:

You 3C bidders must get dealt way more 8 card suits than me.

Doesn't the vulnerability put you off? Don't you need more than 6/6.5 playing tricks for a 4 level vulnerable pre-empt?

[rogerclee]

I have found that in general it is a good policy to preempt with suits that "look like" preempts. QJT9xxxx looks pretty preemptive to me! Also in general people are definitely psychologically averse to defending 4mx, you will see them pull with (34)33 random 8-10's that would pass 4Mx in a shot and collect their number.

[mike777]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-December-24, 03:36, said:

Mike, you say here (and in another thread) that you wouldn't pre-empt with a side King. I guess you wouldn't with a side ace either?
That is way too restrictive: if you follow this rule, then 1) you will not pre-empt often enough, and 2) you will make life incredibly easy for the opposition when they play the hand after you do pre-empt.

It's true that a side honours are negative features which might tip the balance on a marginal hand, but here you have a very weak hand and an 8-card suit with good pips - passing is just giving in.

Kx
Kx
Qx
10xxxxxx

is not a pre-empt, but

Kx
x
xxx
KJ10xxxx certainly is, at any vulnerability

{p.s. it's the same when you have a 4-card major: it's a holding that should put you off, but not stop you.
KQxx
x
x
Jxxxxxx

isn't a pre-empt, but
9xxx
x
x
KQJxxxx

definitely is, again at any vulnerability}

In both of my examples, the position and vulnerability will affect whether I open 3 or 4 (or 5), not whether i open.

thanks for the feedback

useful thread.

[Cascade]

EricK, on 2011-December-24, 05:40, said:

Doesn't the vulnerability put you off? Don't you need more than 6/6.5 playing tricks for a 4 level vulnerable pre-empt?

This is better than 6/6.5 playing tricks - much closer to 7.

Counting 6 clubs and Kx as nearly one trick.

Kx will make a trick if:

partner has the ace 1/3
RHO has the ace (and partner has an entry) nearly 1/3
partner has the queen (and not the ace) approximately 1/3*1/3 = 1/9
and various other times where the defense err or are endplayed.

[S2000magic]

Pretty much a toss-up between 3♣ and 4♣: depends on my mood, my assessment of the opposition (and what my counterpart might do), my assessment of my partner, and so on.

I chose 3♣, so I'd be able to answer the second question: pass - not even tempeted to bid. He knows my hand a lot better than I know his. (As for being tempted, I learned long ago that I always lose when I try to second guess my decisions. Three clubs (initially) might be right, and four clubs (initially) might be right, but 3♣ followed by 4♣ is (in my experience) always wrong.)