[whereagles]

Imps, all vuln, you hold

♠ --
♥ J87xx
♦ QTxx
♣ QJ9x

RHO you LHO pard
1♥..pass..pass..dbl
pass..??

your bid?

[joker_gib]

2♣

[inquiry]

This is not a pass. Bid 2C, bid 2D, bid 1NT... bid something. I would go with 2C.

Ben

[bearmum]

2♣

[EarlPurple]

Pass is tempting (it's not into game, after all). If next hand bids 1♠ and partner doubles what do I do now though?

1NT is an option (now, or after the auction above).

Don't like 2♣. If I'm going to pick a minor I prefer 2♦. Then I can bid 3♣ if partner bids 2♠ in response.

[flytoox]

bid minor should be safe here. dont worry pd will bid 2S. he can bid it directly in the 4th seat.

[Chamaco]

2m.
Penalty pass and 1NT are out of the question, so I'll scramble in a minor.

[EarlPurple]

Someone must have spades. What would partner bid with a good hand, 5-1-4-3 distribution? Or even a strong 6-0-4-3?

The hand over mine is also likely to have them, so if I pass 1♥ it is too likely that he'll bid them. Partner may or may not double, but either way I can possibly bid 1NT now and that might be the best way to go? (Not, though, if partner has a good 6-0-4-3, RHO has 3-6-2-2 and my LHO has 4-2-3-4. We want to be in diamonds.)

[joker_gib]

EarlPurple, on Nov 9 2004, 07:33 AM, said:

Quote

Pass is tempting (it's not into game, after all). If next hand bids 1♠ and partner doubles what do I do now though?

Not for me !

Quote

1NT is an option (now, or after the auction above).

No, I don't want to hear partner bid 4♠ as I don't have anything good for him

Quote

Don't like 2♣. If I'm going to pick a minor I prefer 2♦. Then I can bid 3♣ if partner bids 2♠ in response.

2♣ gives more room to partner !

[helene_t]

joker_gib, on Nov 9 2004, 03:09 PM, said:

Quote

Don't like 2♣. If I'm going to pick a minor I prefer 2♦. Then I can bid 3♣ if partner bids 2♠ in response.

2♣ gives more room to partner !

Pd is not going to bid diamonds, he's going to bid spades. So you should preserve room for yourself. I'm with Earl.

[EarlPurple]

2♣ does not give partner more room. When I hold 5 spades and 5 hearts in an opening bidding situation I open 1♠ so I can rebid 2♥ - that gives us more room. If I open 1♥ I cannot now bid 2♠ and get preference at the 2-level.

It's the same situation here where partner has made a take-out double. I generally play that a take-out double normally shows support for at least 2 of the unbid suits. Sometimes 3 but not always.

We pretty much know we want to play this in a minor, but don't know which one. So we start off by bidding the diamonds and will bid clubs on the next round so partner can give equal-level preference.

That partner has support for the minor I bid now won't stop him showing his spades if he has 6 of them with a good hand (even 5 of them with a good hand). So when I reject that and bid the other minor, he may well wish to return to my first bid suit.

Say partner has:

AKxxxx
void
AJxx
Kxx

Are you saying that you would not reopen with a double when 1♥ is passed round to you? And are you saying that if partner responds 2♦ to your double you won't bother showing your spades?

[Chamaco]

EarlPurple, on Nov 9 2004, 01:08 PM, said:

Partner may or may not double, but either way I can possibly bid 1NT now and that might be the best way to go?

IMO, the respnder to the t/o double must try to describe his hand.
The simple fact that we have 5 card in opps suit does not make our hand a balanced one, and if we bid NT pard will assume we have doubleton in spades.

Actually, if pard has spades, (what we fear most), our 1NT response is much more encouraging for him to bid spades at a higher level that a 2m bid.

Responding 2C or 2D to pard denies any interest in the major, and pard will be on his toes and much more wary of bidding a suit we refused.

After all, pard's t/o doubble says he has fair support in all unbid suits, and he is asking to bid an unbid suit: since we have 2 of them I think that trying not to bid a minor here means just masterminding oneself.

Pard asked us to bid an unbid suit, let's bid what we have !

[joker_gib]

If partner bid only 2♠, I think that the bidding is finished and I certainly would not bid 3♣ after having bid 2♦.

2♣ only says to partner that I'm weak with 4♣ and without 3 cards in ♠

I will only bid ♦ or NT if partner shows a monster hand with a cue bid !

[EarlPurple]

I was not suggesting bidding 1NT now but passing the double, then bidding 1NT when my LHO pulls it out to 1♠ (whether partner doubles this or not). Similarly if LHO opts to redouble and partner bids 1♠. This may describe the hand well if that's what happens, but it is relying too much on LHO rescuing to spades (or defending 1♥-X working well).

Certainly passing is the best way to show partner you have heart length, should the auction progress further.

I prefer 2♦ now though, as I have already said a few times, for the reasons stated. If I bid 2♣ then partner with ♠AQxxxx ♥ - ♦ AJx ♣ Kxxx may choose to show his spades over it, and if I bid 3♦ now he has to go to the 4 level to support my clubs. (Move a small spade into the heart suit and the same situation arises).

[EarlPurple]

joker_gib, on Nov 9 2004, 02:33 PM, said:

If partner bid only 2♠, I think that the bidding is finished and I certainly would not bid 3♣ after having bid 2♦.

2♣ only says to partner that I'm weak with 4♣ and without 3 cards in ♠

I will only bid ♦ or NT if partner shows a monster hand with a cue bid !

Are you saying that in response to a take out double of 1♥ (whether immediate or balancing) you bid 1♠ with 3 rather than 2♣ with 4?

By the way, what do you say this auction shows:

1♥ pass pass 2♠

And what if partner holds:

KJxxx x AQx Kxxx

you think partner should reopen with 1♠ rather than double? (can double hearts later for take-out).

Does a take-out double followed by a spade bid show a power hand with nothing but spades? And how good would the spades be?

I think I need to pull out my Lawrence on balancing.

[joker_gib]

Quote

Are you saying that in response to a take out double of 1♥ (whether immediate or balancing) you bid 1♠ with 3 rather than 2♣ with 4?

Yes, absolutely when I'm weak (0-7 immediate 0-9 after balancing !)

Quote

By the way, what do you say this auction shows:1♥ pass pass 2♠

6♠ 11-14

Quote

And what if partner holds:

KJxxx x AQx Kxxx

you think partner should reopen with 1♠ rather than double?

Yes !

Quote

I think I need to pull out my Lawrence on balancing.

Yes ! lol

[Chamaco]

Quote

Quote

Are you saying that in response to a take out double of 1♥ (whether immediate or balancing) you bid 1♠ with 3 rather than 2♣ with 4?

Yes, absolutely when I'm weak (0-7 immediate 0-9 after balancing !)

Actually, there has ben a thread (I forgot whether here or on rec.games.bridge) about this isue, and most experienced players suggested that, in reaponse to a t/o double, really weak hands should avoid- when in doubt -to bid a major.

This is because the doubler, hearing the major suit response, may get excited if he hlds a good hand, whereas he tends to pull the brakes when he hear response in a minor.

Quote

Quote

By the way, what do you say this auction shows:1♥ pass pass 2♠

6♠ 11-14

Quote

And what if partner holds:

KJxxx x AQx Kxxx

you think partner should reopen with 1♠ rather than double?

Yes !

Here too I disagree with joker.
1S balancing shows a weakish hand, certainly weaker than the hand posted by earl.
Furthermore, doubling here is quite consistent with the shape.
Overall, the hand posted by earl is qualified to double and bid spades later, being in the balancing seat.

[joker_gib]

I know that most of the books tell that when in balancing seat you have to double with opening values but believe me, you can simply play the suit reopening as if it was an overcall and only double with 16+ hands !

[Chamaco]

joker_gib, on Nov 9 2004, 03:07 PM, said:

I know that most of the books tell that when in balancing seat you have to double with opening values but believe me, you can simply play the suit reopening as if it was an overcall and only double with 16+ hands !

I agree with you here Joker, and other experts think alike (.g. Marshall Miles), but they say that you can (and should) just bid your suit in the case it is better (e.g. you do not have a better alternative).

Here double is perfectly fitting with this hand (singleton in opps suit), there fore I am a doubler (as- I think, many players). Change a bit the shape and I may bid 1S holding the same values.

[whereagles]

Chamaco, on Nov 9 2004, 03:59 PM, said:

Actually, there has ben a thread (I forgot whether here or on rec.games.bridge) about this isue, and most experienced players suggested that, in reaponse to a t/o double, really weak hands should avoid- when in doubt -to bid a major.

There are indeed some people "lobbying" for that. But I seem to recall doing it only when you don't have 4 in the unbid major(s). In the action

(1H) dbl (p) ..??

xxxx
xx
xxx
Qxxx

you would still bid 1S instead of 2C. Change the hand to xxx xx xxxx Qxxx, and then there's a case for bidding 2C instead of 1S.

By the way, just in case it matters, in the original problem pard would bid

(1H) p (p) 2S

with 10-13 and 6 good spades.