[pbleighton]

When you see these hands:
1) Do you ever open a 5 card major before a 6 card minor?
2) With 2 majors, do you ever open the 5 carder?

In the above, does hand strength or seat matter?

[bglover]

If I have a weak 2 suited hand, with a longer minor than major, I always open the major 1st and bid the minor twice if necessary. I find this solution less risky than reversing with two bad suits, plus it has the benefit of locating the major suit fit first (usually preferable).

If I have a strong hand with a longer major than a minor I won't open the minor just to create a reverse (altho I will do so with a really strong 5-5 hand if I want to bid out my pattern and reserve bidding space at the same time). Some partners do not like when I do this (since a reverse bid requires unequal length in suits) but it has never led to a disaster. I find its the best solution to bidding 5-5 strong 2 suiters frankly.

[keylime]

Good question...if I got a two suiter major-minor hand, major always first in answering (MAFIA). If it's both majors and strong, spades then a jump into hearts to set a G/F. There's really no need to bid hearts then spades to set a reverse unless you have a very strong hand that is near 2C opening strength and desires a cuebid or slam try.

[inquiry]

I don't believe this is as black and white a question as other posters have suggested. Perhaps the question didn't go far enough into the details of the hands.

Do I ever open 5-5 hands with a minor and a major 1 of a minor? Yes, frequently in fact when I have 5S and 5C. However, I can't recall `opening 1D with 5H and 5D, but someone you could easily propose hands where I would, for instance a hand with the 65432 of hearts and some really good diamonds, a club void and three strong spades.

Six five is another story. I am opening the six card suit almost always. Some exceptions, again, for a very weak six card suit. But you can beat that if I would open 5-5 in the black suits, I gladly open 5-6 with 6 clubs in clubs. High card stregth of hand is irrelevant with major minor 6-5 and opening stregth, I am probably going to be doing some serious bidding. The odds are at least fair that the opponents will enter the bidding in a red suit, so I want to get both my suits in naturally. I would love to get a chance to bid 1S when weak and jump to 2S with some extra playing stregth.

With 6-5 in the majors, playing stregth does play a role. With 6S-5H, I open 1S. With 5S-6H, I also open 1S unless I am strong enough to reverse or my spades are so bad and my hearts are so good that I would worry overtly about playing in a potential 5-2 fit in spades on an auction like         1S-1N-2H-2S.  

The trick to use here is before you make your opening bid with such hands, try to figure out your second bid over the most likely opponent and partners actions. The 5-6 minor/major hand, opening the minor allows you to bid the major without raising the level (especially if long suit major is spades). Other considerations are vulnerabilty and suit quality, as we shall see again below.

First, vulnerability. Can you get zapped (get a bad result) doing this? Of course you can. For instance, If you open 1C on 5-5 or 5-6 and LHO jumps to 3H and two passes back to you, you may well wish you had opened 1S. A pass risk missing a good 4S game if partner has 3S and fair hand but couldn't muster a TO double. A reopoening dbl is takeout (and you may not like the chances of defending if partner passes or of partner bidding 4D if he doesn't). At least if you bid 3S, it will show 5S and at least 5 clubs, but you maybe too high. On the other hand, or partner may bid 4S when 3S was the limit. But that is EXACTLY WHY your opponent stuck his neck out.  On the other hand if the bidding goes 1S-3H-p-p-? at least you know if you pass you are not missing a 4S game, but you may be just as tempted to bid (this time 4C?) as the last hand. The double still risk defend or a 4D bid by partner, but if you bid you are one level higher.

For this reason (since vul games are so important and 5 of a minor is a hard contract if both sides are bidding), I lean towards opening 5-5 hands in the major vul at imps (but again, not always even this situation). When not vul, I don't worry as much about having to open the major -- especially with both black suits. At matchpoints, there is also a premium on playing in the major over the minor, even in a part-score, so I tend to open the major unless other features dictate. This is where suit quality comes into play. A good minor suit and a bad major would sway me in that it might get partner off to the right lead, especially if RHO is passed hand....

For instance with  
 S-KTxxx H-void D-Kxx C-AQJxx  

Bidding
RHO  Me
Pass   ?

I would open 1C for surely LHO will probalby bid Hearts, or partner will. IF we defend hearts, I would prefer a club lead. With better spades or worse clubs, I would open 1S.

[bglover]

Ben brings up a good point.

With a bad 5-5 hand in the black suits I always open 1C so I can get both suits in... There is a big difference in opinion here among writers whether this hand should be opened 1C or 1S (Goren said 1S, Sheinwold advocated 1C for example).

But, per judgment, a weakish 5-5 hand with bad suits you usually want to keep the bidding low initially in case partner doesnt have good supporting cards. So, as a matter of style I will open this hand 1C always as to open 1S nearly always forces the 3 level and the hand may not play well there.

[hrothgar]

I dislike absolutes.  I don't have catagorical rules regarding what I will do with a given shape.

I think that the most important question is whether you are prepared for your rebid.

[inquiry]

Quote

I dislike absolutes.  I don't have catagorical rules regarding what I will do with a given shape.

I think that the most important question is whether you are prepared for your rebid.

That's what I tried to say and took seven or eight paragraphs...  :-*   Thus, hrothgar is not only right, his answer is clear.

[redguard2]

For 6-5 hand:
1) NEVER!

2) NEVER!

3) if some Itlian system (for example, Italian Diamond), my answer is "ALWAYS".

4) but my answer will never be "sometimes" or "it depends"

5) key point, suit length is much more important than points!

for 5-5 hand:
...

I think many books have given good opinions.

if you have a S suit and C suit
for example,
S AK***
H *
D **
C AQ***

I prefer open bid 1S.
Yes, open bid 1C is also OK if you are an expert and do not use simple SAYC, or if in the real bidding world your OPPs are not aggressive like this way,
1C 2H - -
?

[easy]

Eddie Kantar has (what i think) is a good rule of thumb.

If your hand does not contain 17+hcp(reverse strength) but has 14 hcp (all concentrated in your 2 suits) bid the hand naturally ie. longest suit first. If it has less than reverse strength or the 14hcp are not in your long suits treat the hand as if it were 5/5 and bid your highest ranking suit first.

Obviously if the 2 suits r clubs and spades you can do what ever your partnership style dictates.

[Yzerman]

I agree with Richard in that you cant play bridge as a game of "absolutes", you must be flexible.

These are not easy auctions, however the best approach is to envision a few auctions that COULD actually happen and how you would handle your rebids.  There are many factors; position in which to open, if open 1M how comfortable would you be if partner took preference to your major, what methods are available.  Remember when you are dealt a freak hand, there is a high probability that others at the table have a shape hand hence these auctions tend to become competitive and this must enter the equation.

Another general theory is;  "Aggresive bidders will succeed more often than timid bidders".  So applying that principle I would tend to overbid (e.g. open minor) these hands upon a marginal decision.

[inquiry]

This pair of hands came up yesterday on the BBO, South Dealer, NS vul at imps...

S-4
H-KQ987
D-AKJ7
C-K53

S-A9652
H-J
D-9
C-AQ8742

The hand was played 16 times, as usual. The opening bid bid 1S -8 out of 16 (50%), 1C- 6 out of 16 (38%), 2D 1/16 (6%) and 2S - 1/16 (6%)

The two odd openings showed a two suiter. 2S showed less than an opening hand with 5S and a minor suit. Two diamonds showed less than an opening hand and any two suiter.

So what does this tell us? A slight majority of these players who thought this hand was an opening bid (as opposed to preempt) thought 1S was the right bid. Alone this does not tell us much. Lets examine how the contracts reached after these bids.

After 2S and 2S, the contract reached was 3NT each time. 3NT is technically inferior to either 5C or 6C (since the spade spots are so horrid, you might go down against some 5-2 spade splits, or if clubs don't "run").

After the the six 1C opening bids, the contracts reached was 6C (two times), 5 clubs (twice), and 3NT (twice). All in all, the two ending up in 5C just petered out short on their slam try.

After 1S opening bid, the final contract was 6C (twice), 3NT (4 times) and silly contracts of 6NT (1) and 4D (1).

It seems to me that people who opened 1C therefore got to the better contract more frequently 2/6 = 33% versus 2/8 = 25%, and avoid the totally silly contracts (6NT and 4D). In addition, 5C is a better IMP contract that 3NT, so once again the 1C opening bidders seemed to handle this hand better.

I doubt these statistics will convince anyone of what the right opening bid with these hands are, especially given the small sample size. But maybe an examination of the simple and effective auction that occurred at one table using 1C opening versus some of the problems posed at the 1S opening table.

1C - 1H
1S - 2D (*4th suit force)
2S - 3C (2S = 5-6 hand, 3C = game force)
4C - 4N (I would play 4C as RKC but they didnt)
5S - 6C (5S = 2 plus the C-QUEEN)
Pass

Compare this to two common bidding problems after opening 1S that occurred at several tables.

1S - 2H
3C - 3N
Pass

or even more problematic

1S - 2H
2S - 3D
3N - Pass

Here the club suit was never even mentioned. 2S was "weak opening 1S bid", presumably because 3C would have shown extra values that didn't exist.

Don't know if this type of hand affects anyone's judgement, and 6C was reached twice after a 1S opening bid (auctions given for fairness to the 1S bidders....)

1S - 2H
3C - 3D
4C - 4N
5S - 6C

and

1S - 2H
4C - 4D
5C - 6C
Pass

Both of these have a little problem perhpas. The hand evaluation to leap to 4C on the first hand is remarkable...maybe they were playing precision so the hcp was limited. The first one, responder just took control and bid the slam. I assume they have a fine tuned partnership to understand that 4N was a) not to play, and agreed specifically to clubs as trumps. These seem tortured auctions compared to the auction to 6C after a 1C opening given above.

Ben

[the hog]

5-5 in the blacks has always been a bone of contention and the question of what to open surfaces at odd times in various forums.

I have a general rule. If I am not prepared to bid 4S over the opps 4H by the time the bidding gets back to me, I open 1S. Else 1C.

With Ben's posted hand:
S-A9652
H-J
D-9
C-AQ8742

What I open depends on the vulnerability here. Vul I would not be prepared to bid 4S, nv I would, so the opening changes - not ideal I know, but at least reasonably safe.

[JSilver]

An hour or so after reading this thread, I preempted 3H over a 1C opening. LHO, who was 3-3-6-1, bid 4D and played there. Opener was 5-5 in the blacks and 4S was an easy make.

[inquiry]

Quote

An hour or so after reading this thread, I preemped 3H over a 1C opening. RHO, who waas 3-3-6-1, bid 4D and played it there. Opener was 5-5 in the blacks and 4S was an easy make.

Congradulations on your good result. But, to be honest, this auction auction sound "impossible" as 4D must be forcing. One of your opponents made a mistake and that has nothing to do with opening a 1C instead of 1S. I suspect it must be opener since 4D is 100% forcing. I think 6S or 6C would make about half the time or more that the auction starts like this and opener holds 5-5 in the blacks. If 4D bidder is weakish, he can pass then pull the reopen double, if he is intermediate, he can pass and leave in the reopen double. If he is strong, he can either pass and leave the reopen double in, or bid a forcing 4D. If they can make 4S, with opener short in diamonds and responder short in clubs, I suspect 3Hx for you would be down quite a few, maybe too darn many.

Over 4D, with 5-1-2-5 or 5-2-1-5 hand, I would bid 4S. The problem wasn't the opening bid I suspect, but rather timid bidding afterwards.

You could give the hands, and we could see if I would open 1C or 1S... according to "my rules" 1) at imps being vul is a plus factor for opening 1S, and 2) In 2nd seat with good minor and weak major is a plus factor for opening the minor (comments in reply #3 to this thread). The weak spade holding is an important factor here, because partner is more likely to make a "negative" double with a stong 3 card holding than a weak three card one.

Ben

[JSilver]

Since you asked, here are the hands (both vul, partner passed in first seat): Opener, KTxxx, x, xx, AKQJx. Me: 98, AJT8xxx, 9, Txx. LHO: AQx, K9x, AQT8xx, x. On a diamond lead, 6S can be made with careful play, and on any other lead, it's easy. Only 1 pair actually reached that spot; most stopped in 4. 3H could go -3.

Looking back, I agree that opener shouldn't pass 4D. But I can't blame him for wanting to.