[EricK]

Does anybody know why 10 seconds was chosen as the appropriate length of time that people should have to wait after a jump bid? Were any other lengths of time tried beforehand and found to be too short or too long?

My feeling is that 10 seconds is way too long, especially in anything other than the most serious of competitions - I don't recall ever coming across a situation where I make a better call in 10 seconds than I would in 5 (on the other hand I have frequently seen people make worse calls than they otherwise would have because they tried to think too hard about what to do - but that, I suppose, is a different issue).

Aren't most of the problems with the (non-)use od the "Stop" procedure down to people not following it because trying to appear interested for 10 seconds is so much harder than for, say, 5?

Also, why were only jump bids chosen rather than competitive bids? There is so much potential UI due to hesitations in competitive auctions without jumps that it seems odd to restrict this to just jumps - especially when many of these are in obviously uncompetitive auctions!

[axman]

EricK, on 2011-December-03, 07:09, said:

Does anybody know why 10 seconds was chosen as the appropriate length of time that people should have to wait after a jump bid? Were any other lengths of time tried beforehand and found to be too short or too long?

My feeling is that 10 seconds is way too long, especially in anything other than the most serious of competitions - I don't recall ever coming across a situation where I make a better call in 10 seconds than I would in 5 (on the other hand I have frequently seen people make worse calls than they otherwise would have because they tried to think too hard about what to do - but that, I suppose, is a different issue).

Aren't most of the problems with the (non-)use od the "Stop" procedure down to people not following it because trying to appear interested for 10 seconds is so much harder than for, say, 5?

Also, why were only jump bids chosen rather than competitive bids? There is so much potential UI due to hesitations in competitive auctions without jumps that it seems odd to restrict this to just jumps - especially when many of these are in obviously uncompetitive auctions!

The desired condition is that the other players cannot discern when you have a problem and when you don’t. as such, players have a duty to ascertain the tempo that they can maintain consistently as well as adopt methods that are conducive to achieving ‘good tempo’.

Part of achieving good tempo relies on planning ahead of time for typical contingencies by utilizing dead time effectively [such as not starting the auction until everyone at least appears ready, for instance]. Notably the effect of skipping bidding levels is that for a large proportion of players, at least one that is downstream will have something to seriously reconsider and contriving a break that avoids compromising ethics is a reasonable solution if the players take advantage of it.

Other situation are not universally identifiable and therefore do not lend themselves to such a contrivance.

Why use 10sec rather than 5sec or some other pause? Well, why are most duplicate games paced for 7 to 7.5 minute boards? Probably because it ‘feels right. In fact there are a substantial number of players that can’t seem to get the job done in less than 30sec let alone ten; and as you hint, players needing much more than 5sec are probably considering things beyond what their agreements tell them- and that does take considerable time. anyway, from my view 10sec seems to strike an adequate balance [I rarely need more than 1sec after a skip]. My experience is that after my 12sec pause [I seek to pause at least 10sec every time] that there is an eagerness to bid rather than dither which they normally would have done without the pause.

The reason that I am among the non use of the stop procedure is that it is demeaning. It is intimidation to boss an opponent around when there is no reason to do so. It is to his benefit to pause every time. My god, your opponent must be stupid if you have to tell you skip bid; and why would you demand that he pause unless you thought he was going to cheat if he didn’t.

As for they who play the stop card they frequently leave ethics at the door. There’s over 3000 ways to play the stop card/fail to play the stop card . the fact is that the stop card creates more problems than it solves and in short is something that is frequently gotten wrong, yet is totally unnecessary. I don’t need to be bossed around, I pause after every skip without be told to, and I don’t see why any one should be told to; and as stated above I can see why they shouldn’t be bossed around.


The procedure that requires looking at one’s cards and appearing to think is just bonkers. Once I sort my hand and make my plan I rarely look at my cards for the rest of the auction. During the pause you should be doing anything different from your ordinary.

As for competitive auctions, you should adopt as your normal tempo a pace that you can maintain during competitive auctions.

[Vampyr]

EricK, on 2011-December-03, 07:09, said:

Aren't most of the problems with the (non-)use od the "Stop" procedure down to people not following it because trying to appear interested for 10 seconds is so much harder than for, say, 5?

What I find when people disregard my use of the "STOP" card they bid afer about 1 second, not 5.

Quote

Also, why were only jump bids chosen rather than competitive bids? There is so much potential UI due to hesitations in competitive auctions without jumps that it seems odd to restrict this to just jumps - especially when many of these are in obviously uncompetitive auctions!

Some more enlightened European countries use the "Stop" procedure for competitive auctions.

[gwnn]

In Norway you must use the stop card in all 3-level competitive calls (and some others, I'm sure).

[EricK]

Vampyr, on 2011-December-03, 10:27, said:

What I find when people disregard my use of the "STOP" card they bid afer about 1 second, not 5.

But because the rule says 10s and 'nobody' can stay fake interested for 10s they ignore it altogether. I reckon if the rule said 5s fewer people would bid after 1s.

[Vampyr]

EricK, on 2011-December-03, 11:08, said:

But because the rule says 10s and 'nobody' can stay fake interested for 10s they ignore it altogether.

This is not right. I can easily look at my hand for 10s and let my thoughts wander.

Or if you prefer ... in jurisdictions where they won't hold the stop card out for you, or when they should but they don't, do what I do when I am wielding the stop card -- sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, and when you finish the word "Valentine" you have reached 10 seconds.

[S2000magic]

Vampyr, on 2011-December-04, 09:06, said:

. . . sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, and when you finish the word "Valentine" you have reached 10 seconds.

I got about 11.15 seconds, but I really like your solution.

[barmar]

I think someone mentioned this in another thread, and I agree: when you really have a problem, you tend to go into the tank for significantly longer than 10 seconds. Otherwise, you can usually bid in less than 5 seconds (unless you're a novice -- they seem to take forever for every bid). So 10 seconds really is a weird time -- if someone hesitates this long, it's almost certainly just the forced hesitation. As a result, the Stop regulation doesn't really service its purpose, because you can still tell the difference between a real and forced hesitation.

[blackshoe]

I don't know how 10 seconds was chosen, but if you make it longer, people will be even less inclined to follow the regulation.

I might suggest we just let the TD handle breaks in tempo, but I would guess the regulation was put in place because, for whatever reason, that wasn't happening.

[barmar]

Although I do try to pause noticeably, rather than pass quickly, I'm pretty sure my hesitations are generally closer to 5 seconds than 10.

[Mbodell]

I do a slow 10 count over anyone's skips at the table to be able to answer later questions about BIT, keep my breaks the right amount, and observe the opponents pace. Other than when I'm obviously thinking about my call.

[bluejak]

The reason for jumps is simple enough: it makes for a very simple rule, and the simpler it is, the more likely you are to get people to follow it.

As for 10 seconds, people will often shorten it, but that is fine: that makes it about 6 to 8 seconds, which is a reasonable time.

[gwnn]

I always think about my errands in the next few days when I'm not thinking about my call. That keeps me confused enough (but probably noticeably more concentrated than my bridgethink-face).

[gordontd]

bluejak, on 2011-December-06, 02:41, said:

The reason for jumps is simple enough: it makes for a very simple rule, and the simpler it is, the more likely you are to get people to follow it.

This doesn't seem like a good reason: it would be an even simpler rule to use the stop-card before all bids, but it would have an undesirable outcome so we don't do that even though it would make a simpler rule.

I think a more plausible reason is that a jump-bid by an opponent is quite likely to catch you unprepared, and so more likely to create UI unless a consistent pause is mandated.

bluejak, on 2011-December-06, 02:41, said:

As for 10 seconds, people will often shorten it, but that is fine: that makes it about 6 to 8 seconds, which is a reasonable time.

One might present the argument that if the required pause were a bit less, people would be less inclined to shorten it.

[gnasher]

blackshoe, on 2011-December-04, 20:06, said:

I might suggest we just let the TD handle breaks in tempo

I think that would be much worse. Skip-bid regulations, if you obey them, eliminate a significant proportion of tempo variations, whereas all that the TD can do is apply the UI rules after a break in tempo has already occurred.

Even if everybody else ignores the skip-bid warning, if you follow the rules you will still protect your own partnership from UI problems.

[gnasher]

gordontd, on 2011-December-06, 03:23, said:

One might present the argument that if the required pause were a bit less, people would be less inclined to shorten it.

One might need to provide some evidence for this. It would need to counterbalance the strong evidence from the way people respond to, for example, speed limits, deadlines, and start-times for club duplicates.

[gordontd]

gnasher, on 2011-December-06, 04:28, said:

One might need to provide some evidence for this. It would need to counterbalance the strong evidence from the way people respond to, for example, speed limits, deadlines, and start-times for club duplicates.

Actually, I was thinking of speed limits when I wrote it: the 30mph limit (in the UK) was not chosen because people will then drive at 40mph; it was chosen because that was considered to be the limit that makes the greatest difference in mortality. And when people fail to respect it, the solution chosen was not to lower it further, but to enforce it better.

[aguahombre]

Of course, speed limits are subject to interpretation as well.
In a school zone, do they really want us to slow to 20 MPH when flashing? Is that so the kids can see it?

[axman]

gordontd, on 2011-December-06, 03:23, said:

One might present the argument that if the required pause were a bit less, people would be less inclined to shorten it.

The underlying idea is to provide [adequately often] more than enough time [yet not way much more] for any of the next three players to contemplate, distinct from just enough time.

[jallerton]

gordontd, on 2011-December-06, 04:57, said:

Actually, I was thinking of speed limits when I wrote it: the 30mph limit (in the UK) was not chosen because people will then drive at 40mph; it was chosen because that was considered to be the limit that makes the greatest difference in mortality. And when people fail to respect it, the solution chosen was not to lower it further, but to enforce it better.

That's not strictly true, Gordon.

30mph was the standard limit for built-up areas in the UK, but on thousands of urban streets the speed limit has been cut to 20mph within the last decade.

Meanwhile on lots of other roads where the speed limit was 40mph it has been cut to 30mph.

I'm struggling to think of any UK roads on which the permanent speed limit has increased during the same period!

As far as 'stop' cards are concerned, most players keep the card down for at most 3 seconds. When challenged they claim that they did hold it down for about 10 seconds. When I hold down the 'stop' card for (what I consider to be) 10 seconds I am sometimes reminded by an opponent that I have "forgotten" to pick the 'stop' card up!