[JLOGIC]

Totally agree that 10 seconds is ludicrous. Bridge is too slow already. Doubt I ever need 10 seconds when they open 2H on my right. Just try to hesitate for the same amount of time each time and if it's only 5 seconds your partner will not have UI.

[blackshoe]

Not everyone is as quick to bid as you are, Justin.

I don't think we want to be suggesting to people reading this forum that they break the rules.

[EricK]

blackshoe, on 2011-December-07, 16:26, said:

Not everyone is as quick to bid as you are, Justin.

"The slowness of genius is hard to bear, but the slowness of mediocrity is intolerable" (Henry Buckle, 19th Century chess player).

It's bad enough when Bermuda Bowl contestants sit and think for an age before deciding what to do - but at least their thoughts are pertinent to the problem at hand. Non-experts do not play better if given more time to think, and so encouraging them to think for 10 seconds does nothing to improve their results, and just infuriates everyone else. On the other hand, banning most people from ever thinking for 10 seconds would improve the game no end without a noticeable drop in the level of play.

[blackshoe]

You misunderstand the purpose of the regulation. It has nothing to do with experts, or with encouraging non-experts to think. It has to do with masking, as much as possible, UI from longer and shorter than normal tempo breaks.

[EricK]

blackshoe, on 2011-December-07, 18:18, said:

You misunderstand the purpose of the regulation. It has nothing to do with experts, or with encouraging non-experts to think. It has to do with masking, as much as possible, UI from longer and shorter than normal tempo breaks.

I understand the purpose of the regulation. My (admittedly tongue-in-cheek) comment was suggesting that it would make for a better bridge experience to try to mask UI by forcing people to spend less time when they have a problem, rather than more when they don't.

[blackshoe]

How does that help the case of those who spend less time — often almost no time — when they don't have a problem?

[jmcw]

At my local clubs, few bother to use the stop card. When used, it is mostly ignored by the next bidder.
I do not recall the director ever being called because of failure to use the stop, nor has the director been called for someone not pausing for the appropriate time.
At sectional tournaments in my area a similar pattern of indifference prevails.

I would suggest that most BIT/hestitations occur during competative auctions regardless of jumps.

[EricK]

blackshoe, on 2011-December-07, 22:24, said:

How does that help the case of those who spend less time — often almost no time — when they don't have a problem?

Well that's why I say my comment was partly tongue-in-cheek.

But it relates to my original assertion that 10 seconds is too long because, as Justin says, bridge is too slow as it is.

I think, to cover as many potential UI cases as possible, without slowing the game down unnecessarily, the regulations for "mandatory pauses" should be something like this:

On the first round every player has a mandatory pause of 2 seconds (even if they have an obvious pass they can - and should - use this time to decide what they will bid over their partner's likely openings, so they should be able to look genuinely interested in the proceedings)
If both players in a partnership have passed in turn, then there are no mandatory pauses
While an auction is "competitive" (i.e. both sides have made a bid or double in the last round) then there is a mandatory pause of 2 seconds for each player.

This, I believe, forces people to pause whenever they might have something to think about, and doesn't force them to fake an interest when there is likely nothing to think about, without ever delaying the game too much.

[blackshoe]

Well, that would require some regulatory changes, and that's probably not going to happen.

Would this two second pause be over the players' normal tempo? If so, what do you consider to be "normal tempo"? Is it the same for everyone?

[EricK]

blackshoe, on 2011-December-08, 09:31, said:

Well, that would require some regulatory changes, and that's probably not going to happen.

Would this two second pause be over the players' normal tempo? If so, what do you consider to be "normal tempo"? Is it the same for everyone?

2 second pause is 2 second pause. After that they can bid whenever they want (but UI rules obviously apply). With any luck there won't be much delay after the 2 seconds, and people will be able to fake an interest for 2 seconds if needed. How often does it take more than 4 seconds (2 from RHO, 2 from you) to decide what to do in an uncontested auction on the first round? In a contested auction 2 seconds should be sufficiently long to hide many "obvious" passes from marginal ones.

[blackshoe]

EricK, on 2011-December-08, 17:45, said:

How often does it take more than 4 seconds (2 from RHO, 2 from you) to decide what to do in an uncontested auction on the first round?

Often enough that I notice it.

Doesn't really matter; the regulation is what it is.

[bluejak]

gordontd, on 2011-December-06, 03:23, said:

This doesn't seem like a good reason: it would be an even simpler rule to use the stop-card before all bids, but it would have an undesirable outcome so we don't do that even though it would make a simpler rule.

Of course it would, but it would be unhelpful and unreasonable.

I did not realise I needed to say it, but if I need to I shall:

The reasons for jump bids is to make a very simple rule that is reasonable. Any complication makes it less likely to be followed. It is true that totally unreasonable but simpler rules are available, eg only use a stop card before 7NT bids. However, this is counter-productive. So the simplest rule that was reasonable was chosen, in a large part because of its simplicity.

gordontd, on 2011-December-06, 03:23, said:

I think a more plausible reason is that a jump-bid by an opponent is quite likely to catch you unprepared, and so more likely to create UI unless a consistent pause is mandated.

I do not agree. There are other situations where this is just as true, but such situations would complicate a simple rule.

gordontd, on 2011-December-06, 03:23, said:

One might present the argument that if the required pause were a bit less, people would be less inclined to shorten it.

I just do not believe this.

[EricK]

blackshoe, on 2011-December-08, 18:22, said:

Often enough that I notice it.

Doesn't really matter; the regulation is what it is.

And my original question was why is it what it is? Were any other rules tried (eg 5 second pause) before 10 seconds was decided to be "correct"?

[blackshoe]

No idea. The regulation was already in place when I started playing again (I played in college, but have no recollection of regs back then). As to why, well, I could guess, but that's all it would be. The C&C committee don't confide in me.

[Vampyr]

EricK, on 2011-December-08, 17:45, said:

people will be able to fake an interest for 2 seconds if needed.

Why are you banging on about this? It sounds as if you need to do something about your mannerisms if you don't want to keep getting into trouble.

[PeterAlan]

bluejak, on 2011-December-08, 23:49, said:

gordontd, on 2011-December-06, 03:23, said:

One might present the argument that if the required pause were a bit less, people would be less inclined to shorten it.

I just do not believe this.

Nor do I. At the club last night, LHO opened 1♥, and the auction continued P-2♥-4♠. There were 3 Passes and the opening lead was on the table before it was time for me to pick up the stop card. But this is a club where few players play tournament bridge, and poor habits take hold.

[EricK]

Vampyr, on 2011-December-09, 07:41, said:

Why are you banging on about this? It sounds as if you need to do something about your mannerisms if you don't want to keep getting into trouble.

I have never got into trouble (at least about this). I can genuinely think about a bridge hand for 10 seconds if I want, although I don't believe I change my intended call in the last 7 or so seconds; I just use the time to plan further action. But from my admittedly limited observations, there is an issue with this rule for the reasons I have mentioned.

[gordontd]

PeterAlan, on 2011-December-09, 08:23, said:

Nor do I. At the club last night, LHO opened 1♥, and the auction continued P-2♥-4♠. There were 3 Passes and the opening lead was on the table before it was time for me to pick up the stop card. But this is a club where few players play tournament bridge, and poor habits take hold.

You're talking about players who ignore the Stop card. I was talking about those who shorten the pause.