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4th seat opinions please

#1 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 09:30

Can anyone give me some good guide lines for passing out in the 4th seat


(no drinking to much jokes please)
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Posted 2004-October-13, 09:39

A simple method is 'rule of 15': you count your HCP and the number of s together, and you may only open if you have at least 15.

Examples:

Open with:
Axxxx
Qxx
Ax
xxxx

but not with:
Qxx
Axxxx
Ax
xxxx

I can tell you, it's just a method, NOT a rule! We've seen some hands in the past where the opener had only 2 s and about 13HCP, and pass was the best option.

I usually look at my hand, count my points, and if I have 15HCP or more I always open. With 14 I also open most of the time, but from 13 and lower I usually look at my s. If I'm shorter than 4 I pass. I've passed a lot of times with great success this way, but I also had bottoms because of it.

Fact is that my partner would've opened with a lot of hands with at least a 5 card in , so if we don't have a fit in the master suit, it's not worth it for me, unless I'm really long in .
Therefor in 4th seat, our 2M openings are 12-14 with a 6-card, hoping to keep opps out of the bidding in case we open 2, and to make our constructive bidding better (we can rebid at 2-level with 15-17, and jump with 18-19 :) ).
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Posted 2004-October-13, 09:53

Free described "" Pearson Rule" or Rule of 15, using Pearson Points. Just to give it a name....

HE did a nice job explaining it, to see a longer version of the same description go to.... http://www.bridgeguy...ons/Rule15.html
--Ben--

#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 10:09

When opening light in 4th (or 3rd) seat, I prefer to have a way to tell partner that I don't have opening values. With 3+ in all higher-ranking suits, I can do so by passing the response. So with I would not open with less than opening strength, since I can't safely pass 1 by partner.
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#5 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 11:26

The first thing to realise is that if you pass the hand will be passed out!

What this means is that you should only open if you have a good expectation of getting a positive score. So the weaker you are, the less you should want to open.

The second thing to realise is that if there is a part score battle the side with Spades will often buy the contract. So the fewer Spades you have, the less you should want to open.

The third thing to realise is that you still get bonuses for bidding games! So you shouldn't be to eager to pass it out, especially if your partner requires "sound" values to open in second seat.

What this amounts to (and these are only general guidelines, not absolutes) is that you shouldn't open minimum hands in 4th without Spades, and you should only open other hands in 4th without spades if there is a reasonable chance of game opposite a maximum pass for partner.

Eric
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#6 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 15:48

I have an untested corrolary to Pearson Points.

If pard is throwing in certain good hands with hearts (and short spades), then its incumbent on 2nd seat to open marginal hands without spade duplication holding the heart suit; especially at IMPs.

Take an example of: xx, AQxxx, Kxx, Kxx. By definition, this hand should be passed in 4th seat, right? Therefore, 2nd hand really should open holding hands along the line of: xxx, KJxxx, Ax, QJx.

OTOH, you can have a blanket agreement that you open all 12's in 4th seat, regardless of Pearsons, and occasionally take the 4 IMP hit when they bid and find their 2S contract.
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Posted 2004-October-13, 15:52

Well the times where I have let Pearson points sway me have been mixed success... Sometimes it is godd thing I choose to open or not, sometimes it was a bad thing. Statistically, I haven't seen a big difference one way or the other... +50 for settign 2S one, is better than pass out for instance.

At least if you follow the PP, you will be able to decide what to do on marginal hands... now, rather it is right or not on any given hand is a different matter.
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#8 User is offline   helium 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 22:17

helene_t, on Oct 13 2004, 11:09 AM, said:

When opening light in 4th (or 3rd) seat, I prefer to have a way to tell partner that I don't have opening values. With 3+ in all higher-ranking suits, I can do so by passing the response. So with I would not open with less than opening strength, since I can't safely pass 1 by partner.

do u ever open light in 4th seat?
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#9 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 22:27

helium, on Oct 13 2004, 11:17 PM, said:

helene_t, on Oct 13 2004, 11:09 AM, said:

When opening light in 4th (or 3rd) seat, I prefer to have a way to tell partner that I don't have opening values. With 3+ in all higher-ranking suits, I can do so by passing the response. So with I would not open with less than opening strength, since I can't safely pass 1 by partner.

do u ever open light in 4th seat?

Not only have I opened light in fourth seat, I've opened a two bid in 4th seat.



I'll take my chances at two spades.
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#10 User is offline   Rebound 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 23:49

I have no objective evidence, but the rule of 15 seems to have worked very well for me.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy - but it might improve my bridge.
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#11 User is offline   helium 

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Posted 2004-October-14, 00:35

jtfanclub, on Oct 13 2004, 11:27 PM, said:

helium, on Oct 13 2004, 11:17 PM, said:

helene_t, on Oct 13 2004, 11:09 AM, said:

When opening light in 4th (or 3rd) seat, I prefer to have a way to tell partner that I don't have opening values. With 3+ in all higher-ranking suits, I can do so by passing the response. So with I would not open with less than opening strength, since I can't safely pass 1 by partner.

do u ever open light in 4th seat?

Not only have I opened light in fourth seat, I've opened a two bid in 4th seat.



I'll take my chances at two spades.

better have an agreement whit partner then most people use 2 openings in 4th seat as 16+ and 6 cards:))
foole me once, shame one you!!
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#12 User is offline   nikos59 

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Posted 2004-October-14, 01:43

I think it is standard that a 4th seat 2H/2S shows a 10-12 6-carder,
no?
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#13 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2004-October-14, 03:50

pclayton, on Oct 14 2004, 10:48 AM, said:

I have an untested corrolary to Pearson Points.

If pard is throwing in certain good hands with hearts (and short spades), then its incumbent on 2nd seat to open marginal hands without spade duplication holding the heart suit; especially at IMPs.

Take an example of: xx, AQxxx, Kxx, Kxx. By definition, this hand should be passed in 4th seat, right? Therefore, 2nd hand really should open holding hands along the line of: xxx, KJxxx, Ax, QJx.

OTOH, you can have a blanket agreement that you open all 12's in 4th seat, regardless of Pearsons, and occasionally take the 4 IMP hit when they bid and find their 2S contract.

Interesting pclayton --- the hand you quote as an opener (11 HCP and 5 ) my reg partner and I WOULD open in 2nd seat --- BUT probably would pass in 4th seat - and I would open the 12 point hand in 4th seat at IMPS (and occasionally will get a BAD score if opps get to play the contract in 2

BUT we play a fairly simple Precision which makes it easier in some cases to stop in part score contracts ;)


OTOH I play occasionally online with a lovely lady from CA -- and she asked me to play Pearson points - THIRTEEN to open in 3rd position(NV) and 15 in 4th --- and so far it's worked OK for us :)
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#14 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-October-14, 08:07

bearmum, on Oct 14 2004, 01:50 AM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 14 2004, 10:48 AM, said:

I have an untested corrolary to Pearson Points.

If pard is throwing in certain good hands with hearts (and short spades), then its incumbent on 2nd seat to open marginal hands without spade duplication holding the heart suit; especially at IMPs.

Take an example of: xx, AQxxx, Kxx, Kxx. By definition, this hand should be passed in 4th seat, right? Therefore, 2nd hand really should open holding hands along the line of: xxx, KJxxx, Ax, QJx.

OTOH, you can have a blanket agreement that you open all 12's in 4th seat, regardless of Pearsons, and occasionally take the 4 IMP hit when they bid and find their 2S contract.

Interesting pclayton --- the hand you quote as an opener (11 HCP and 5 ) my reg partner and I WOULD open in 2nd seat --- BUT probably would pass in 4th seat - and I would open the 12 point hand in 4th seat at IMPS (and occasionally will get a BAD score if opps get to play the contract in 2

BUT we play a fairly simple Precision which makes it easier in some cases to stop in part score contracts ;)


OTOH I play occasionally online with a lovely lady from CA -- and she asked me to play Pearson points - THIRTEEN to open in 3rd position(NV) and 15 in 4th --- and so far it's worked OK for us :)

Well, I think most non-precision pairs or the non-mini-NT's would pass that hand in 2nd; 11 hi's, 8 losers, barely 26 ZARs.
"Phil" on BBO
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#15 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2004-October-14, 10:36

nikos59, on Oct 14 2004, 08:43 AM, said:

I think it is standard that a 4th seat 2H/2S shows a 10-12 6-carder,
no?

I'd have said 10-14 points, or more precisely a hand that is not looking for game opposite a passed partner.

p
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