[helium]

U play 2/1 and ur partner is a bbo-star a expert from bulgaria, and this board come up in a 12 boards team match. deal 3 score so far is 0-0

Scoring: IMP

---

and bidding goes :
you lho partner rho
1♥ -1♠ -2♠ 4♠
5♣ -5♠ -6♦ pass
?????

what now?

please vote and explaine

kenneth

[Chamaco]

It depends whether you play negative free bid, and if he plays NFB, how he would show a single suiter.

If responder had a single suiter in diamonds without heart support, what would he do in your system ?
Bid 2D forcing, double then diamond, cuebid then diamond, jump shift in diamonds ?

If you can rule out that pard has a diamond single suiter with no heart support, then I would correct to hearts.
If not, I pass hoping that his diamonds are better than my hearts.

[whereagles]

I trust pard wouldn't have bid 6D for some futile reason. Since good hearts and the diamond ace isn't enough, I take it pard has spade control as well. I bid 7H (I take it 2S was heart support...)

[inquiry]

First, your partner has heart support. He could have bid 2♦ forcing without it. So forget playing any number of diamonds. Second, your 5♣ was a slam try and/or set defense to 5♠ since partner has support.

Third, your partner had a forcing pass available over 5S, and choose not to use it. With a spade void (or unlikely spade ace), he would have used this to invite grand slam, pulling your double of 5♠ to 6♦ to show to spade void (or ace) plus the diamond ace. So any grand slam ambitions are out the window. A simple 6♥ here is your only option.

Further info here, your partner can't be void in spades for a second reason. he didn't splinter to 3♠. In fact, may not have a singleton spade either for the same reason. Although there are some unassuming cue-bids I would make with a singleton.

The big question here (and you probably don't have a answer for it) is would a pass over 4♠ in your partnership be forcing? If so, you bid perfectly, the 5♣ bid would deny a spade control. You would pass and then pull a double to 5♣ to show a spade control. Assuming your 5♣ denied spade control, your partners hand is likely ♠x ♥KQxxx ♦AJxx ♣xxx, something like that (as he is trying for grand slam, it could hardly be weaker). (obvioulsy with doubleton small spade he would signoff, and with first round control (ace or void) he would use forcing pass first then bid 6♦).

Ben

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Oct 11 2004, 10:43 AM, said:

I trust pard wouldn't have bid 6D some futile reason. Since good hearts and the diamond ace isn't enough, I take it pard has spade control as well. I bid 7H.

Your PARTNER can not have first round spade control... not if he is a gold star expert... some people try to bid correctly.... with that hand, he would make a forcing pass over 5♠ and then invite seven with a six diamond bid.... His 6♦ bid is caterring to the possibility that you have first round spade control..

Ben

(edited in response to next reply)

This post has been edited by inquiry: 2004-October-11, 09:09

[whereagles]

edited

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Oct 11 2004, 10:57 AM, said:

Ben, the comment was fair, but the last sentence was silly and serves no purpose other than irritating me. Can we please agree on discussing matters on this board without you implying that I suck at this game? Thank you.

No the comment wasn't addressed to you at all.. despite quoting you. The comment was addressed to the bid of 6♦ being "planned"... that is the way an expert would bid the north hand. The bid you made by south was logical if your partner doesn't bid scientifically, but rather bid winning bridge style. But since helium stated this was a bulgarian gold star, I mearly was pointing out that an EXPERT parnter wouldn't bid 6♦ here with a first round spade control.

Since I really didn't mean it as a shot at you, I have removed that comment. Again, what I was trying to say was that an expert makes a sequence of bids to convey a particiular idea, and the fact that he bids one way or the other, conveys specific information about what he holds (or doesn't hold). Thus I was talking about the bids by the unseen hand, and that player being an expert (in this case a gold star)... and the fact that he can't hold a first round control in spades on this auction... I wasn't talking about you being or not being an expert at all. In fact, I have no knowledge of your ability one way or the other. I actually suspect 7♥ will be a popular choice.

However, it was your 7H bid that I was disagreeing with, and I have a clear reason to do so. So, I certainly hope you don't mind if I go ahead and explain why I think it is wrong? It might not affect your future bidding, but I hope some will agree with my view and alter the way they bid in the future, or at least give them some bridge logic to consider if they never thought (or heard) of this before.

Ben

[helium]

inquiry, on Oct 11 2004, 09:43 AM, said:

First, your partner has heart support. He could have bid 2♦ forcing without it. So forget playing any number of diamonds. Second, your 5♣ was a slam try and/or set defense to 5♠ since partner has support.

Second, your partner had a forcing pass available over 5S, and choose not to use it. With a spade void (or unlikely spade ace), he would have used this to invite grand slam, pulling your double of 5♠ to 6♦ to show to spade void (or ace) plus the diamond ace. So any grand slam ambitions are out the window. A simple 6♥ here is your only option.

Further info here, your partner can't be void in spades for a second reason. he didn't splinter to 3♠. In fact, may not have a singleton spade either for the same reason. Although there are some unassuming cue-bids I would make with a singleton.

The big question here (and you probably don't have a answer for it) is would a pass over 4♠ in your partnership be forcing? If so, you bid perfectly, the 5♣ bid would deny a spade control. You would pass and then pull a double to 5♣ to show a spade control. Assuming your 5♣ denied spade control, your partners hand is likely ♠x ♥KQxxx ♦AJxx ♣xxx, something like that (as he is trying for grand slam, it could hardly be weaker). (obvioulsy with doubleton small spade he would signoff, and with first round control (ace or void) he would use forcing pass first then bid 6♦).

Ben

Yes ben we use forsing pass here, and i showed no spade controll and 1st controll in club a good hand whit slamintress,(thinking 2 ♠was a limit raise+) but partners 6 dimonds comfused me so ill tell u my bid after that later:))



kenneth

[whereagles]

inquiry, on Oct 11 2004, 04:08 PM, said:

However, it was your 7H bid that I was disagreeing with, and I have a clear reason to do so. So, I certainly hope you don't mind if I go ahead and explain why I think it is wrong? It might not affect your future bidding, but I hope some will agree with my view and alter the way they bid in the future, or at least give them some bridge logic to consider if they never thought (or heard) of this before.

Well, you do bring up an important point that I had missed, and I agree with the inferences you drew from the absence of a forcing pass.

Let me just add this is a situation where partnership agreements can make a difference, as the requirements for a forcing pass may vary a bit. If your agreements go no further than a vague "pass is forcing" (where I play this is the best you can get - sad but true), there is a slightly better case to take 6D as a generalized grand slam try.

[Free]

6♥, what else?

[helium]

Chamaco, on Oct 11 2004, 09:38 AM, said:

It depends whether you play negative free bid, and if he plays NFB, how he would show a single suiter.

If responder had a single suiter in diamonds without heart support, what would he do in your system ?
Bid 2D forcing, double then diamond, cuebid then diamond, jump shift in diamonds ?

If you can rule out that pard has a diamond single suiter with no heart support, then I would correct to hearts.
If not, I pass hoping that his diamonds are better than my hearts.

whit i long strong di singlesuiter he would bid 2♦forsing.
but im not 100% sure p dont have ♦after thees bidding.


kenneth

[junyi_zhu]

helium, on Oct 11 2004, 02:27 PM, said:

U play 2/1 and ur partner is a bbo-star a expert from bulgaria, and this board come up in a 12 boards team match. deal 3 score so far is 0-0

Scoring: IMP

---

and bidding goes :
you lho partner rho
1♥ -1♠ -2♠ 4♠
5♣ -5♠ -6♦ pass
?????

what now?

please vote and explaine

kenneth

6D is super strong bid here, which is even stronger than forcing pass. Surprised to see so many bid 6H chickenly. gotta bid 7, and 7C might be more flexible than 7H in some rare situations.

[inquiry]

junyi_zhu, on Oct 11 2004, 04:00 PM, said:

6D is super strong bid here, which is even stronger than forcing pass. Surprised to see so many bid 6H chickenly. gotta bid 7, and 7C might be more flexible than 7H in some rare situations.

I suspect you play forcing pass much differently than the rest of the world... to pass and then pull a reopening double is generally considered stronger than to act immediately. Here 6♦ leaves the door open for 7♥ if South should happen to control spades.... now, if 5♣ denied a spade control, then there is sound logic that 6♦ shows first round spade control after all, no need to invite 7 if you know you are off a spade trick.

Ben

[junyi_zhu]

inquiry, on Oct 11 2004, 08:58 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Oct 11 2004, 04:00 PM, said:

6D is super strong bid here, which is even stronger than forcing pass. Surprised to see so many bid 6H chickenly. gotta bid 7, and 7C might be more flexible than 7H in some rare situations.

I suspect you play forcing pass much differently than the rest of the world... to pass and then pull a reopening double is generally considered stronger than to act immediately. Here 6♦ leaves the door open for 7♥ if South should happen to control spades.... now, if 5♣ denied a spade control, then there is sound logic that 6♦ shows first round spade control after all, no need to invite 7 if you know you are off a spade trick.

Ben

The basic logic here is that you pass then you pull to show a hand that is better than direct 6H but not as good as cuebidding directly. Forcing pass means I don't know what to do, so I pass. Thus pass then pull the double means I still don't have a clear new suit cuebid, but I am sure I am stronger than direct 6H. The truth is that most players don't even understand the idea of forcing pass, including some fine players.

[luke warm]

i'm thinking 7H probably made at the table, but i couldn't bring myself to bid it... yeah, maybe i'm just chicken, but this was a team match... one of barry crane's rules was *never* bid a grand at teams... he evidently had his reasons for it, and i'm not saying that's why i'd bid 6 here, but i'd feel real sick if 7 is off 1 and 6 is cold...

the problem seems to be the 1S overcall... what's it made on? who are the ops? do our teammates overcall 1S on this hand? if they do, 6H might not be easy to reach at the other table, much less 7... i think i'll bid 6

[helium]

luke warm, on Oct 11 2004, 07:16 PM, said:

i'm thinking 7H probably made at the table, but i couldn't bring myself to bid it... yeah, maybe i'm just chicken, but this was a team match... one of barry crane's rules was *never* bid a grand at teams... he evidently had his reasons for it, and i'm not saying that's why i'd bid 6 here, but i'd feel real sick if 7 is off 1 and 6 is cold...

the problem seems to be the 1S overcall... what's it made on? who are the ops? do our teammates overcall 1S on this hand? if they do, 6H might not be easy to reach at the other table, much less 7... i think i'll bid 6

Yeah this was my toughts too, opps have bid 1-4-5 ♠ voulnrable and they have very few pts.
btw opps are self assigned world class players. dont know them but they were good players .

[whereagles]

I think there is an important lesson to be taken from this poll: sit down and discuss with your partner the overall approach to forcing pass situations. As we saw, a vague "pass is forcing" approach clearly won't cut it when complicated situations happen in real life.

[inquiry]

junyi_zhu, on Oct 11 2004, 07:38 PM, said:

The basic logic here is that you pass then you pull to show a hand that is better than direct 6H but not as good as cuebidding directly. Forcing pass means I don't know what to do, so I pass. Thus pass then pull the double means I still don't have a clear new suit cuebid, but I am sure I am stronger than direct 6H. The truth is that most players don't even understand the idea of forcing pass, including some fine players.

I think this is FAR from the generally accepted way to play this bid.

If you had to define a term for this, it would be the "principle of fast arrival". I am sure you are familar with this term, and it applies to competitive auctions as well... The general rule says when there are multiple ways to bid to a level, the SLOW WAY shows a stronger hand.

Lets use the PFA on the example auction...
you lho partner rho
1♥ -1♠ -2♠ 4♠
5♣ -5♠ ?????

First, what would it mean to PASS and then pull your partner's double? Would it mean you couldn't make up your mind to defend or press on after 5♠, and upon hearing your parnter's decision to defend, all of sudden you have decided that your partner never gets anything right, so if he wants to defend, then bidding on is the only right option? Of course not. IF you really had no idea of to defend or bid on, your partners choice to double would have ended the auction....

Would a pass and then bid anyting over partners double (6♥ or 6♦) mean you simply want to play in six, end of story? Of course not, you could have bid that immediately without inviting partners participation in the process.

To pass and then pull, you in fact express doubt, but the doubt isn't about making six, it is about bidding seven.

So here are the possible auctions...

(1)
you lho partner rho
1♥ -1♠ -2♠ 4♠
5♣ -5♠ -6♦

(2)
you lho partner rho
1♥ -1♠ -2♠ 4♠
5♣ -5♠ -6♥

(3)
you lho partner rho
1♥ -1♠ -2♠ 4♠
5♣ -5♠ pass pass
DBL ---Pass-----6♦

(4)
you lho partner rho
1♥ -1♠ -2♠ 4♠
5♣ -5♠ pass pass
DBL ---Pass-----6♥

Of these, auction number 2 is the weakest. Who knows, maybe your partner is worried that 5♠ will make on this one. You should pass in a flash.

Auction number 1 is the second weakest. Here 6♦ is forcing (as far as I am concerned we have agreed upon hearts as trumps) and is a mild grand slam try. The reasaon this is mild, is because of PFA... with a strong grand slam try, partner would have used the forcing pass.

Auction 3 is the strong of the four. Here partner is better is than an immediate six diamonds (slow auctions stronger). He is inviting grand slam, and since he could have show the diamond control immediately to invite grand slam (see auction 1), by inference has first round control of spades

Auction 4 is a betweener. It is a grand slam try but denies the ability to cue-bid either minor. Clearly shows a great hand and first round spade control, but lacks cue-bid in either minor.

So again, this is just anonther example of the very simple, and well understood Principle of Fast Arrival (PFA). This says that: in fit auctions, if there are
two ways of bidding to a certain spot, the slower route shows extra values. There are lot of places to read more about this treatment, I particularly like Robson/Segal's "partnership bidding at bridge" which is avaialbe on line in PDF format.

So while there are many ways you could agree to play forcing pass, I think in my experience, in my reading, and by study of how my "heros" bid (yes there are so many I look up to), I think this PFA-based approach is by far and anyway the most common. So with my partners, a FORCING pass and then a cue-bid (or 6H bid) doesn't say "I didn't know what to do, so I passed"... quite to the contrary, it says, I wanted to strongly invite to seven so I bid the best way to show that desire.

Ben

[helium]

Well Ben you coulnt be more right in ur analysis, this was the full deal:


http://online.bridge....php?id=6930332



i was whit my p on hi his bidding intill 6♦now i got the ide that he had shown strong loong ♦and a ♠void so i bid 7 ♦,p bid 7♥ and opps only took 1 ♠trick so we got a even board. 6♥-1 on other table.



kenneth

[flytoox]

whereagles, on Oct 12 2004, 09:51 AM, said:

I think there is an important lesson to be taken from this poll: sit down and discuss with your partner the overall approach to forcing pass situations. As we saw, a vague "pass is forcing" approach clearly won't cut it when complicated situations happen in real life.

The problem is not many ppl have this luxury. Most of us just sit down and play a few. Even you discussed it, sth new will come out and you find it has not been discussed before.

I personally dont like 6D. If pd is looking for 7H, Why not bid 5N? 6D is really testing pd. Why bother with it?

I think I will bid 6H, looking for a sure plus.

If I want to go to 7H, then I will bid 7C on the way, suggesting a place to play. If pd has only three hearts and good club spt. 7C may play better than 7H.


Hongjun