[Hanoi5]

Imp pairs, Both red:

♠A9xxxx
♥xx
♦K85
♣AQ

1♥-1♠
2♦-3♣
3♥-???

1♥ is 11-15.

[MrAce]

3NT

Bid now or u aint playing 3NT. At worst u will have a 6-2 ♠/♥ fit, which brings tricks in Nt too.

[Fluffy]

3♠ shows a suit that will be gladly raised with honnor singleton, even a low one sometimes. I don't want that scenario. so 3♠ is out.

On the other hand Axxxxx is a great holding opposite singleton if playing in hearts, even the doubleton club might play a role in hearts, so I raise partner.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2011-October-16, 04:49, said:

3♠ shows a suit that will be gladly raised with honnor singleton, even a low one sometimes. I don't want that scenario. so 3♠ is out.

On the other hand Axxxxx is a great holding opposite singleton if playing in hearts, even the doubleton club might play a role in hearts, so I raise partner.

Hmm, how do you expect partner to bid say Q, KQJ10x, Axxx, xxx, if 3♥ is the default bid over 3♣, 4♥ could be ugly with 3N cold on a club lead, but there are other hands where 4♥ is right, complete guess. To me, 3♠ shows no more than a 6th one, so I can bid that, but not sure if I want to as 3N may well be right and partner may be unable to bid it.

Put me down for 3N.

[gwnn]

NT or spades hearts? I think hearts.

[rhm]

3NT

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-October-16, 06:07, said:

Hmm, how do you expect partner to bid say Q, KQJ10x, Axxx, xxx, if 3♥ is the default bid over 3♣, 4♥ could be ugly with 3N cold on a club lead, but there are other hands where 4♥ is right, complete guess. To me, 3♠ shows no more than a 6th one, so I can bid that, but not sure if I want to as 3N may well be right and partner may be unable to bid it.

Put me down for 3N.

This is preciselly the hand I don't want to bid 3♠ against, partner will raise to 4♠ since he doesn't have anything else to bid. 4♥ only needs ♣K onside and you just ruff a club in dummy and almost claim. Spade contracts are hopeless. 3NT might be better or not.

I think the normal 1642 distribution is too likelly

[Hanoi5]

I sincerely think 3♠ leaves more room for getting to a better contract. 3♥ doesn't neccesarily show 6 cards, does it?

[wank]

Hanoi5, on 2011-October-16, 13:39, said:

I sincerely think 3♠ leaves more room for getting to a better contract. 3♥ doesn't neccesarily show 6 cards, does it?

it endplays partner. he's got to bid something and most likely he can't bid 3NT as you're looking at the AQ of clubs

[whereagles]

3NT. You're probably down already, so...

[gwnn]

This is the worst 4th suit situation so auctions will always be murky here. It's very good to play some smart artificial calls on the previous round to alleviate the problems with this sequence.

3♦ shows 5-5, 3♥ shows 6 cards, 3♠ shows 3-card support and 3NT shows a good stop.

opener has to make the least lie if none of these matter, but personally I prefer to show a 6 card major with a 5 card major only if said major is very good. sure playing opposite xx would be tough but that's life. Partner showed a 6th heart and I will play him for that, unless we have a special agreement re: precedence of distortions and 3♥ is the designated lie (something I wouldn't like to have).

The problem with 3♠ has been already sketched by fluffy: we have bid already and asked for 3-card support already, to no avail. Rebidding spades here should show a much better suit. This is similar to what I mentioned above about hearts, bidding hearts and then rebidding them shouldn't just show a little waiting move, it should show genuine interest in playing in hearts opposite our most likely holding, a doubleton. 3♠ should also show interest in playing spades opposite partner's most likely holding, which by now is a singleton.

I would never rebid 3♥ with something like Kx KJxxx Axxx Jx and I would be sick if my partner did that to me. That would be a 3♠ bid, or if spades are two small and good diamonds then perhaps 3♦. It's nice to know what partner's tendencies are here, but we've been told nothing about such preferences, so yes I would just go with the principle that if I rebid my suit I have interest in playing there opposite a pretty likely holding of partner's and not a fairytale.

Finally, if you have a strong opinion about a particular hand, why post it online? I can think of two reasons, one is to educate the common folks on the Advanced/Expert section and one is to seek reassurance and companionship. I think the first one is kind of misguided and the second one is better served if you come out openly and just say it "my partner bid 3N here but I think 3♠ is better, what do you think? I hope you agree with me..." Not that many people post this way, just an idea. Sorry I don't want to be personal here just wondering in general.

This post has been edited by gwnn: 2011-October-16, 14:06

[Hanoi5]

gwnn, on 2011-October-16, 14:02, said:

Finally, if you have a strong opinion about a particular hand, why post it online? I can think of two reasons, one is to educate the common folks on the Advanced/Expert section and one is to seek reassurance and companionship. I think the first one is kind of misguided and the second one is better served if you come out openly and just say it "my partner bid 3N here but I think 3♠ is better, what do you think? I hope you agree with me..." Not that many people post this way, just an idea. Sorry I don't want to be personal here just wondering in general.

1♠-2♥
3♦ is a worse situation.

I bid 3NT. I made 3NT. This is not the issue. I was just wondering after the hand whether 3♠ was better or not and I thought it would for the reason posted above.

What are the smart artificial calls? Gazilli?

[gwnn]

1♠-2♥; 3♦ is not really a worse situation if you make 3♦ well defined (most people play it either as promising 5-5 or promising 5-4 but with serious extras) and have opener rebid 2♠ and 2NT more often. There you have a handy waiting bid on the previous round by opener, but here responder is forced to bid 4SF. In the 2/1 situation responder will have a better idea on what opener has so has less need to bid 4♣ (if you play it as 4sf).

For some reason I can't remember what the solution was but I think the point was to use 1♠ then 2♠ as an artificial GF bid by responder (and unloading that hand type in 2♠?) instead of the expensive 3♣. Let me look. Yes that was it, it was Meckwell's methods 1♠ then 2♠ = GF (but I'm not sure how many?) and with a 4 card suit and GF you can respond 2♣ and keep the bidding low.

1♥-2♠=5-9

1♥-1♠
something-3♠=10-12

1♥-1♠
2x-2♠ = GF

This post has been edited by gwnn: 2011-October-16, 14:51

[Siegmund]

I'm setting the contract in 4H before anything else bad happens. On a bad day I'll be in a 5-2 fit (when partner is 2-4-5-2 or 1-4-5-3 with all his points in red suits) but on those days 3NT or 4S isn't exactly going to be a walk in the park either. I expect hearts to be the right spot much more often than not.

[gnasher]

gwnn, on 2011-October-16, 14:02, said:

This is the worst 4th suit situation so auctions will always be murky here. It's very good to play some smart artificial calls on the previous round to alleviate the problems with this sequence.

3♦ shows 5-5, 3♥ shows 6 cards, 3♠ shows 3-card support and 3NT shows a good stop.

I think the normal expectation for 3♠ is a 2542 shape. With a 3541 minimum, wouldn't opener have raised 1♠ to 2♠ (unless he's French)?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3NT.

I would bid 3NT, that showes the 5the spade, the club stopper, and does not promise add.
strength.
The alternative is 4H, this would also not show add. strength, since without a club stopper
and with a poor spade suit, you have to find a bid.

3S showes SI with a good spade suit, I dont think the given spade suit is good enough
to send this message.

With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt

[gwnn]

gnasher, on 2011-October-17, 02:46, said:

I think the normal expectation for 3♠ is a 2542 shape. With a 3541 minimum, wouldn't opener have raised 1♠ to 2♠ (unless he's French)?

I think there's plenty of non-French people who don't raise on 3 that often (and see raising on 3 as a last resort of some sorts). However, there's probably more people who do, so your point is certainly valid, and makes a 3♠ bid here even less advisable.

[Zelandakh]

gwnn, on 2011-October-16, 14:02, said:

3♦ shows 5-5, 3♥ shows 6 cards, 3♠ shows 3-card support and 3NT shows a good stop.

I don't think 3D promises 5-5. If you go for the very simple agreement that the cheapest response is used when you have nothing else better to say then 3D becomes the catch-all. We are far more likely to be interested in the 6th heart than he 5th diamond and it leaves the maximum space available for "pass-the-buck" bids before we drop into 3NT.

[gwnn]

It doesn't strictly promise 5-5: just as I said above, I would bid 3♦ much more often with 4 as 3♥ with 5. These words, "shows", "promises", "guarantees", "implies", etc, have always been a little bit ambiguous in bridge and in my post I wanted to talk about what these rebids would mean in an ideal world (and, as gnasher pointed out correctly, if in this ideal world opener never raises on 3, which is a non-ideal treatment). As you might have seen from the following few paragraphs in my post, I clearly did not mean to say "when opener bids 3♦ he always has 5-5". Furthermore, please excuse my weird word "matter" when I wanted to say "apply".

[dake50]

I want 3NT coming to me after almost begging for a club lead.