[whereagles]

IMPs, intermediate opps

♠ Jxx
♥ KTxx
♦ KJxx
♣ Kx

We Pard
pass 1♠
2♣ 3♣
3NT 4♠

You didn't open a 9-11 NT because you were vuln 2♣ was normal Drury, and the rest was natural.

Pass or press on? If so, what would you bid?

[Chamaco]

Pass.
Club K is a nice card, but otherwise the hand is rather poor, and in my opinion even 2C drury was probably an overbid suggesting a better hand for a suit contract.

[cherdano]

I think anything but pass is insulting partner's judgment. You bid drury, then committed to game when 3♣ may just have been a re-invitation. So partner knows you have an absolute maximum, given you have a passed hand, and he decided not to look for slam. You have no surprises for him, neither a 9th trump nor a exceptional shape.

[Flame]

Seems wrong that the slam bidding will start after 4sp.
i dont know what was 3nt, but you should have (maybe you did) showed slam intrest before, and if partner doesnt like it, then let him play 4sp.

[inquiry]

The auction makes little sense to me. You have a great hand for this auction. I play 3♣ as game force in this situation, and slamish, since opener could have signed off with an immediate bid of 4♠ rather this exploratory method.

However, over 3NT, even if he was only mildly interested in slam, partner could have cue-bid a red ace on the way to 4♠. This suggest that he doesn't have a red ace... however I can't believe he bid this way, inviting slam try opposite a passed hand with no red suit ACES or KINGS (since I have both kings). I am guessing that he hoped that 3♣ would elicit a cue-bid from you (it would have from me), and he is signing off. This suggest that he was worried that a cue-bid of his red ace might get you too excited.. but the club king is a huge card on this auction.

I think he is likely 5-5 or 6-5 and the king of clubs is a wonderful card. Your biggest problem is not lack of aces, but lack of quality spade suport. If partner is...

AQxxx x Ax Axxxxx, you are probalby high enough, If he is AKQxx x Ax Axxxx You need to bid on. He can hardly be much weaker than either of these hands show. The problem here is, you can't know which. I guess I would bid 5♠ as the secret to this hand is good turmps. With AK-sixth or AKQ of spades, six will ahve a good play. I refuse to believe partner has less than three aces here....

The bidding would have been much simplier if you had cue-bid 3♦ over 3♣ and then, when next to bid, cue-bid 4♣. Now your partner will be in control and you don't have to guess what to do.

Ben

[helium]

obvius pass to me

[pclayton]

whereagles, on Oct 6 2004, 04:06 AM, said:

IMPs, intermediate opps

♠ Jxx
♥ KTxx
♦ KJxx
♣ Kx

We Pard
pass 1♠
2♣ 3♣
3NT 4♠

You didn't open a 9-11 NT because you were vuln 2♣ was normal Drury, and the rest was natural.

Pass or press on? If so, what would you bid?

I don't know why 3♣ would be considered a slam try, but I suppose it can be played that way (and all game tries stem from 2♦). As I play, 3♣ initially is a game try (I play it as short suit), and 3N presumably gave partner a choice of games ( I agree with it by the way; it shows where your values are, although you'd rather have more secondary cards and tenaces). Now pard chooses 4♠; looks like a normal place to play.

If 3♣ was some kind of slam try, certainly pard can find another call than 4♠.

[the hog]

I assume this is a serious question. Pass.

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Oct 6 2004, 08:07 PM, said:

I assume this is a serious question. Pass.

I disagree with the Hog...I don't assume this is a serious question.

Sorry, I had to say it. I pass too.

[bearmum]

PASS ----- you have a MAX point wise for your initial pass I agree BUT partner has not shown any MAD desire to press on towards slam ( unless I am missing something --I don't knw the responses to Drury - but assume that 3♣ shows a full opener -- and perhaps a club suit too? )

[Fluffy]

I think I remember this hand from ayesterday´s tourney I was playing also, and I think it belonged to part-socre.

[flytoox]

pass, 2c and 3N told all my story. Pd decides to play 4s. I agree.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Oct 6 2004, 07:52 PM, said:

I don't know why 3♣ would be considered a slam try, but I suppose it can be played that way (and all game tries stem from 2♦). As I play, 3♣ initially is a game try (I play it as short suit), and 3N presumably gave partner a choice of games ( I agree with it by the way; it shows where your values are, although you'd rather have more secondary cards and tenaces). Now pard chooses 4♠; looks like a normal place to play.

If 3♣ was some kind of slam try, certainly pard can find another call than 4♠.

Using 3♣ as a short suit game try is interesting but not part of normal normal drury (I am use to playing reverse drury and two way drury, so you will ahve to excuse my rustyness here)....

Responses to normal drury are

P-1S-2C-?

• 2♠ = subminimum opening bid
  
• 2♦ = solid opener (say 13 hcp or so minimum), but does not promise much more
  
• 2NT = typically shows strong 1NT opener type hand (playin weak nt still does). Since I open 1NT with that hand, for me this is somethiong else!!
  
• 2♥, 3♣, 3♦ = second suit and at least game invite. I think this is wasetful, I play it game force and sliam invite, second suit
  
• 3♠ = strong game invite (I think t his is wasteful, and I play it as optional blackwood).
  
• double jump = splinter, ok good use, slam invite
  
• 4♠ to play
  
• 3NT = huge balanced hand, think 18/19 iwth five card major

Ok, let's deal with the various "game invite" hand in traditional drury.. 3♠.. a waste, 3♣.. a waste.. here is why. If you have clubs and game invite, you can bid 2♦ which is forcing to at least 2♠ and then, when the time is ripe, bid 3♣. Walla. That was easy. What if you had the traditional 3♠ invite partner ot bid 4 with all but the worse drury hand? Then, simply bid 2♦ and raise 2♠ to 3♠. So as you can see, you can bundle game tries up with the 2♦ response, so it is wasteful to have 3♣ be game try or better. And simply game force, opener would bid 4♠ immeidately (a key bid on these auctions).

You also have use of 2♦ initial response, and over partners discouraging 2♠, a 2NT and 3NT rebids are availabe. I use 2NT as a "tell me more" bid, asking responder to show where his values are.. I use after this 2♠ rebid, a new suit as game invite showing the second suit.

So that brings us full circle to this horrible auction. For me, 3♣ is at the very least a mild slam try. Responder has an obligation with a club fit and controls in both majors to CUE-BID.. .his hand opposite a black two suiter is really not notrump oriented anyway. So the mistake was the lack of a 3♦ cue-bid, plain and simple. So I would never, ever find myself is this bidding pickle. But for me, my partner was thinking possible slam with 3♣, and his bid of 4♠ was not because he didn't origianlly have slam interest, but because my 3NT bid discouraged him. I think his hand is clearly something like the two I posted, for nothing else makes any sense.... Good spades, long clubs, a red ace. And if it not, he misbid already...

Ben

PS.. and if you are playing strong NT, but would open 1NT iwth five card major and 5332 hand, what is 2NT? I would treat that as a relay for a short suit game try, essentially your 3♣ bid over 2♣. Responder will bid 3♣ only if he was willing to stop in 3♠ opposite a 3♣ game invite splinter, he will bid 3♦ only if he is willing to stop in 3♠ opposite a game invite splinter in diamonds, but would go opposite on in clubs, etc.

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Oct 7 2004, 05:51 AM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 6 2004, 07:52 PM, said:

I don't know why 3♣ would be considered a slam try, but I suppose it can be played that way (and all game tries stem from 2♦).  As I play, 3♣ initially is a game try (I play it as short suit), and 3N presumably gave partner a choice of games ( I agree with it by the way; it shows where your values are, although you'd rather have more secondary cards and tenaces). Now pard chooses 4♠; looks like a normal place to play.

If 3♣ was some kind of slam try, certainly pard can find another call than 4♠.

Using 3♣ as a short suit game try is interesting but not part of normal normal drury (I am use to playing reverse drury and two way drury, so you will ahve to excuse my rustyness here)....

Responses to normal drury are

P-1S-2C-?

• 2♠ = subminimum opening bid
  
  
• 2♦ = solid opener (say 13 hcp or so minimum), but does not promise much more
  
  
• 2NT = typically shows strong 1NT opener type hand (playin weak nt still does). Since I open 1NT with that hand, for me this is somethiong else!!
  
  
• 2♥, 3♣, 3♦ = second suit and at least game invite. I think this is wasetful, I play it game force and sliam invite, second suit
  
  
• 3♠ = strong game invite (I think t his is wasteful, and I play it as optional blackwood).
  
  
• double jump = splinter, ok good use, slam invite
  
  
• 4♠ to play
  
  
• 3NT = huge balanced hand, think 18/19 iwth five card major

Ok, let's deal with the various "game invite" hand in traditional drury.. 3♠.. a waste, 3♣.. a waste.. here is why. If you have clubs and game invite, you can bid 2♦ which is forcing to at least 2♠ and then, when the time is ripe, bid 3♣. Walla. That was easy. What if you had the traditional 3♠ invite partner ot bid 4 with all but the worse drury hand? Then, simply bid 2♦ and raise 2♠ to 3♠. So as you can see, you can bundle game tries up with the 2♦ response, so it is wasteful to have 3♣ be game try or better. And simply game force, opener would bid 4♠ immeidately (a key bid on these auctions).

You also have use of 2♦ initial response, and over partners discouraging 2♠, a 2NT and 3NT rebids are availabe. I use 2NT as a "tell me more" bid, asking responder to show where his values are.. I use after this 2♠ rebid, a new suit as game invite showing the second suit.

So that brings us full circle to this horrible auction. For me, 3♣ is at the very least a mild slam try. Responder has an obligation with a club fit and controls in both majors to CUE-BID.. .his hand opposite a black two suiter is really not notrump oriented anyway. So the mistake was the lack of a 3♦ cue-bid, plain and simple. So I would never, ever find myself is this bidding pickle. But for me, my partner was thinking possible slam with 3♣, and his bid of 4♠ was not because he didn't origianlly have slam interest, but because my 3NT bid discouraged him. I think his hand is clearly something like the two I posted, for nothing else makes any sense.... Good spades, long clubs, a red ace. And if it not, he misbid already...

Ben

PS.. and if you are playing strong NT, but would open 1NT iwth five card major and 5332 hand, what is 2NT? I would treat that as a relay for a short suit game try, essentially your 3♣ bid over 2♣. Responder will bid 3♣ only if he was willing to stop in 3♠ opposite a 3♣ game invite splinter, he will bid 3♦ only if he is willing to stop in 3♠ opposite a game invite splinter in diamonds, but would go opposite on in clubs, etc.

Our openings are limited. As I may have mentioned in prior posts: 2♣ opening is 4-5 losers, and at least 5 controls. Its usually 19-21 HCP, but it can be shaded (a lot if the control and loser count are in line). So, finding a slam becomes less important, and getting to all the games that make are. In a nutshell:

After 2♣ (reverse drury):

2♦ - full opener
........2 of a major - 3 trump
................new suit - help suit game try
........3 of a major - 4 trump; balanced
........jump shift - splinter
........3♠ / 2♥ and 3N over 2♠ = void splinters

2 of major - sub minimum

New suit - short suit game try (actually we play 2 way game tries; 2♠ over 2♥ relays to 2N so we can show long suit game tries too).

Any hand that opener presses on to game shows slam interest (rare). Responder is expected to cue bid along the way.

We reached a nice slam on Tuesday:

---

after:

1♥-2♣
2♦-4♦
4♠ (kickback....etc)

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Oct 7 2004, 11:33 AM, said:

After 2♣ (reverse drury):

2♦ - full opener
........2 of a major - 3 trump
................new suit - help suit game try
........3 of a major - 4 trump; balanced
........jump shift - splinter
........3♠ / 2♥ and 3N over 2♠ = void splinters

2 of major - sub minimum

New suit - short suit game try (actually we play 2 way game tries; 2♠ over 2♥ relays to 2N so we can show long suit game tries too).

Any hand that opener presses on to game shows slam interest (rare). Responder is expected to cue bid along the way.

We reached a nice slam on Tuesday:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ Kxxx ♥ Kxxx ♦ x ♣ KQxx ♠ AQx ♥ QTxxx ♦ AQ ♣ Axx

after:

1♥-2♣
2♦-4♦
4♠ (kickback....etc) 

Ah, well with reverse drury, I too play 3♣ as short suit game try. The problem, however clearly stated "normal drury"

About your slam hand, I am confused.. did it go pass-1H? Do you play drury after a first seat opening bid? Do you think North is too good for a direct 4♦ over 1♥?

I would open north, so my bidding would be
1♣ - 1♥
2♥ - 2NT
4♦ - 4NT yada yada yada....

If south opens, my bidding would be (even if I passed as norht)...

1♥ - 2NT
3♥ - 4♦
4NT yada yada yada

Here, 2NT is Jacoby plus (see other thread on this today). And 3♥ is strong slam try (serous 3NT now off, and 3♥ by either player ask for distributional features.... So that 4♦ shows a splinter in diamonds, and a hand too good to bid 4♦ immediately.

[whereagles]

Thx all. Here are the hands

We........Pard
♠ Jxx.......AKQxx
♥ KTxx.....x
♦ KJxx......Axx
♣ Kx........AQxx

We..Pard
pass..1S
2C....3C
3NT...4S

We didn't discuss if 3C was some sort of game-try or if it was slammish, but luckily both of us were on the same wavelenght: we took it as slammish.

This being so, there are, I think, two interpretations for pard's auction:

1. By bidding 4S he's inviting me to carry on if I have a good hand for the bidding so far. If this is so, then I must bid on. My hand is just about as good as it could be expected after my bidding so far. The red suits are headed by kings, not QJs, and the club king is a monster. I can hardly imagine pard not to have a red ace, so 5S is the bid here, looking for decent trumps.

2. He bid 3C to see what I have to say. Upon hearing 3NT, showing red suit wastage, he re-evaluated his hand, and decided 4S was the limit. In this case pass is obvious.

I see almost all players took interpretation 2. After all, there is a hint at 2: pard might have cue-bidded 4D on the way to 4S if he really wanted to go further, right?

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Oct 7 2004, 12:42 PM, said:

Thx all. Here are the hands

We........Pard
♠ Jxx.......AKQxx
♥ KTxx.....x
♦ KJxx......Axx
♣ Kx........AQxx

We..Pard
pass..1S
2C....3C
3NT...4S

We didn't discuss if 3C was some sort of game-try or if it was slammish, but luckily both of us were on the same wavelenght: we took it as slammish.

This being so, there are, I think, two interpretations for pard's auction:

1. By bidding 4S he's inviting me to carry on if I have a good hand for the bidding so far. If this is so, then I must bid on. My hand is just about as good as it could be expected after my bidding so far. The red suits are headed by kings, not QJs, and the club king is a monster. I can hardly imagine pard not to have a red ace, so 5S is the bid here, looking for decent trumps.

2. He bid 3C to see what I have to say. Upon hearing 3NT, showing red suit wastage, he re-evaluated his hand, and decided 4S was the limit. In this case pass is obvious.

I see almost all players took interpretation 2. After all, there is a hint at 2: pard might have cue-bidded 4D on the way to 4S if he really wanted to go further, right?

Well, almost all players were not all.. I bid 5♠ for the right reason...

Now that we see both hands, let's review the bidding. First, can you see why 3NT was wrong? Over 3♣ it is your duty to cue-bid your diamond control. If you can get that far, you are a long way towards improving your bidding, imo.

Next to the issue of with this hand should your partner cue-bid 4♦? Thiis i s much closer decision that I had envisioned. I imagined your partners hand something like s-AKQxx H-x D-Ax C-Axxxx. One club less but with the queen makes it close decsion between 4D and 4S, but even giving him a pitiful, S-AKQxx, H-x D-Axx C-Axxx, you have a play for slam. The secret to the slam play is the good trumps... His actual monster (S-AKQxx, H-x, D-Axx, C-AQxx) is probably sufficient to make one more slam try by bidding 4D over 3NT.. but as the other hands show, you have a great slam chance against several considerably weaker holdings to boot.

The bidding should be...

P - 1S
2C - 3C
3D - 3H
4C <<--- the 3D and 4C cue-bids are key to the hand.. 4NT now gets you to where you need to be... simple, huh?

Ben

[luke warm]

ben, in a way i agree with you... but i do have a problem... responder's 2C bid showed a spade limit raise, correct? to me there are better limit raises than a balanced 11 count... not only that, 3 of west's hcp are in east's short suit

doesn't opener know what to expect from responder? i think a case can be made for opener to look further, if he judges to do so

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Oct 7 2004, 01:35 PM, said:

ben, in a way i agree with you... but i do have a problem... responder's 2C bid showed a spade limit raise, correct? to me there are better limit raises than a balanced 11 count... not only that, 3 of west's hcp are in east's short suit

doesn't opener know what to expect from responder? i think a case can be made for opener to look further, if he judges to do so

He can't imagine the club doubleton king.... never...

Give opener a more reasonable slam try hand for his failure to bid 4D (or 4H).. something like (come up with any with good trumps, four/five clubs to the ACE, and a red ace and a red singleton)

---

What is he to do? To start cue-bidding 4D is unililey to help. What is the feature in responders hand that is golden? Doubleton club king. Opener "sees" something like... S-Jxx H-KQxx D-QJxx C-Qx for this bidding. Sure, might have diamond king instead of queen, but still starring at club and heart loser.

BTW, IF I make my answers sound like my way is the only way, I apologize.. there are many ways to bid hands... it is just that my way is the only way I can think to bid the hand, so that is why I sometimes sound so positive of my reply. It is just a fulke that my 5♠ would have worked out like wonders on this one, and that my comments about how bad the 3NT bid was turned out to be dead on target. Sometimes I get lucky.

Ben

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Oct 7 2004, 07:48 AM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 7 2004, 11:33 AM, said:

After 2♣ (reverse drury):

2♦ - full opener
........2 of a major - 3 trump
................new suit - help suit game try
........3 of a major - 4 trump; balanced
........jump shift - splinter
........3♠ / 2♥ and 3N over 2♠ = void splinters

2 of major - sub minimum

New suit - short suit game try (actually we play 2 way game tries; 2♠ over 2♥ relays to 2N so we can show long suit game tries too).

Any hand that opener presses on to game shows slam interest (rare). Responder is expected to cue bid along the way.

We reached a nice slam on Tuesday:

<!-- PARTNERSNS begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> ????? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> Unknown </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Kxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> Kxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> x </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> KQxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AQx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> QTxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AQ </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Axx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- PARTNERSNS end -->

after:

1♥-2♣
2♦-4♦
4♠ (kickback....etc) 

Ah, well with reverse drury, I too play 3♣ as short suit game try. The problem, however clearly stated "normal drury"

About your slam hand, I am confused.. did it go pass-1H? Do you play drury after a first seat opening bid? Do you think North is too good for a direct 4♦ over 1♥?

I would open north, so my bidding would be
1♣ - 1♥
2♥ - 2NT
4♦ - 4NT yada yada yada....

If south opens, my bidding would be (even if I passed as norht)...

1♥ - 2NT
3♥ - 4♦
4NT yada yada yada

Here, 2NT is Jacoby plus (see other thread on this today). And 3♥ is strong slam try (serous 3NT now off, and 3♥ by either player ask for distributional features.... So that 4♦ shows a splinter in diamonds, and a hand too good to bid 4♦ immediately.

Yes, my partner passed the North Hand! I was (pleasantly) suprised when dummy came down, but I did politely mention that he passed an opening bid.....believe it or not the hand even held the club J, which I did not add to the hand. ; yes I know that 6N is as good as 6♥...grrrr......

No we don't play rev drury by an unpassed hand. Only after 3rd and 4th seat openers.

And; from a structural sense; responder is barred from splintering to the 4 level after an initial pass. Our 3rd seat openers can be just a little too lite to allow this. Further; we are opening (at least I thought ) hands that others wouldn't that conform to ZAR theory. Here's kind of a neat idea if you have a hand that WANTS to splinter to 4 after a 3rd seat opener: 1 major - 2 club - 2 major - 3x = shortness.