[masse24]

Playing 2/1

None Vulnerable

South dealer:

---

You begin with:

1♥ - 2♣

How do you continue? 2♥'s here, by South does not promise 6...
3♥ promises a solid suit.

[kenrexford]

Given the stated rules...

1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♥-4♦
4♠-4NT
5♣-5♠
6♥

[mike777]

1h=2c
2d=2s
3h=4h
5c=6h

[the_dude]

mike777, on 2011-September-26, 19:36, said:

1h=2c
2d=2s
3h=4h
5c=6h

Same as Mike's auction, though I think I would bid 2NT at North's second turn.

Rebidding your hearts at South's second turn would be a mistake because (as you say) it doesn't show anything. Better to bid your Diamonds (which *does* show something, not to mention that Diamonds could easily be the best trump suit) and follow with a Heart bid at your next turn - which will easily identify your 6-4. The the advantage of 2/1 is that you know that there will be another chance to bid out your shape because partner is not going to jump to 3NT on you...

[fromageGB]

As mike's.
Ken - why would north bid 4♦?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

masse24, on 2011-September-26, 19:19, said:

Playing 2/1

None Vulnerable

South dealer:

---

1H - 2C! ( 4+ cards ), game force
2NT! ( "extras", no 4s; my system ) - 3C! ( 5+ cards; no 4 cards Diam; )
3H ( 6+ cards ) - 4H
4NT ( Meckwell's Voidwood for Hts, excluding the Sp Ace ; whereas 4S! = kickback RKC for Hts ) - 5C ( 0/3 )
5D! ( hQ-ask ) - 6C ( hQ + cK )
6H

[kenrexford]

fromageGB, on 2011-September-27, 05:37, said:

As mike's.
Ken - why would north bid 4♦?

4♦ is a (somewhat generic) cue in support of hearts. With both red queens, the Ace in the second suit bid by Responder, and the King in the first suit, I think this to be just (barely) good enough opposite an Opener who showed mild slam interest already by not bidding his suits ♥-♥-♦ (which is wwaker IMO than the actual ♥-♦-♥).

[hrothgar]

Somewhat shocked that folks aren't ever supporting partner's club suit.

You have three card trump support, two top club honors, and a spade VOID and somehow supporting partner's suit is too much bother?

[quiddity]

I think I would start
1♥ 2♣
2♦ 2NT
3♣ 3♥
3♠ 4♣
and eventually get to 6♥.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

hrothgar, on 2011-September-27, 10:37, said:

Somewhat shocked that folks aren't ever supporting partner's club suit.

You have three card trump support, two top club honors, and a spade VOID and somehow supporting partner's suit is too much bother?

As shown in many 2/1 posts here, 2C does not promise 5 cards .... it is 4+ if natural.

[mikeh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-September-27, 14:25, said:

As shown in many 2/1 posts here, 2C does not promise 5 cards .... it is 4+ if natural.

Even if we accept that 2♣ doesn't promise real length (and I suspect we all accept that), I know of no standard method in which it positively denies length!

I won't say that no expert would ever suppress clubs after an auction that started 1♥ 2♣ 2♦, but I do think that the vast majority of experts would bid clubs at their 3rd turn if it were convenient, and that it would almost always be convenient.

I would expect a standard 2/1 type auction to begin:

1♥ 2♣
2♦ 2N
3♣

2♠ is certainly an option instead of 2N, but our hand sure looks like we should be declarer in 3N if that is where we are headed.


I can't imagine bidding 3♥ here.....surely telling partner that we have 12 cards in the non-spades is more important than telling him that we have 10 red cards, and we leave finding hearts open over 3♣...partner will ALWAYS bid 3♥ on Hx over 3♣....while bidding 3♥ over 2N essentially ends all hope of reaching clubs opposite some hand such as AJxx x Axx KJxxx.

[xxhong]

1H 2C
2D 2S
3C 3H
4N(ERKC in H with S void) 5D(3-0)
Now we have a problem.

masse24, on 2011-September-26, 19:19, said:

Playing 2/1

None Vulnerable

South dealer:

---

You begin with:

1♥ - 2♣

How do you continue? 2♥'s here, by South does not promise 6...
3♥ promises a solid suit.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure why some folks are claiming that we are NEVER supporting clubs simply because we choose to bid hearts at the third round.

Sure,

1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♣-3♥

That's a start. But, so is,

1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♥-something
4♣

Sure, as well, the first auction shows 12 cards immediately. But, the second auction shows 13 cards eventually. The question is one of tactics.

A bid of 3♣ by Opener tends to look like 1543, but 0553 is often the holding, and 0643 is possible.

A bid of 3♥ shows 6-4 in the reds, but all things are possible external to this.

One question is whether you are good enough to leave 3NT to show club support if partner declines hearts, and I think the hand is that strong.

A second question, though, is ease of auction.

If you start with 3♥ at the third bid, life is good when there is a fit. Bidding is geared toward the majors anyway. So, a raise works well.
Against that, though, the delayed raise of 3♥ is not quite as good. Opener needs to confirm the sixth heart and the agreement. What does that? What calls, instead, focus back to clubs? Does 3♠ by Opener shifts tacks, or is it rejecting hearts and concentrating on spades? What about 4♣ or 4♦? It seems to me that hearts are more clearly focused with the heart rebid.

But, then to clubs. If Opener bids 3♣, Responder still needs 3♥ as natural to cater to the heart fit. Do all other calls, then, agree clubs? Are we in probe zone or no? If Opener bids hearts and then supports clubs later, in the event of a non-raise of hearts, clubs is clearly focused and clearly slammish, with the void identified and exact shape known.

So, which shows BETTER hearts? IMO, bidding 3♥ and then 4♣ tends to operate somewhat loosely as a pre-cue, in a sense. The hearts are better than 3♣...agree hearts.

To contrast, I would bid 3♣ with ♠-- ♥Axxxxx ♦AKxx ♣AQx. The same strength, but lesser hearts and better minors.

[mikeh]

kenrexford, on 2011-September-27, 15:18, said:

I'm not sure why some folks are claiming that we are NEVER supporting clubs simply because we choose to bid hearts at the third round.

Sure,

1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♣-3♥

That's a start. But, so is,

1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♥-something
4♣

Your points have merit, Ken, but seem to me to be based on a naive assumption or two.

Firstly, and most importantly, after 1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 2♠ 3♥......why do you assume that, as opener, you get to bid 4♣ on the next round?

I am willing to bet that on a very substantial number of hands that start with this auction, responder's call over 3♥ will be something higher than 3N, taking your 4♣ bid out of the picture. And over the very common raise to 4♥, 5♣ would not (imo) be interpreted as showing primary club support.

Secondly, I have grave doubts that your auction would be universally understood as you intend it

[masse24]

mikeh, on 2011-September-27, 14:41, said:

Even if we accept that 2♣ doesn't promise real length (and I suspect we all accept that), I know of no standard method in which it positively denies length!

I won't say that no expert would ever suppress clubs after an auction that started 1♥ 2♣ 2♦, but I do think that the vast majority of experts would bid clubs at their 3rd turn if it were convenient, and that it would almost always be convenient.

I would expect a standard 2/1 type auction to begin:

1♥ 2♣
2♦ 2N
3♣

2♠ is certainly an option instead of 2N, but our hand sure looks like we should be declarer in 3N if that is where we are headed.


I can't imagine bidding 3♥ here.....surely telling partner that we have 12 cards in the non-spades is more important than telling him that we have 10 red cards, and we leave finding hearts open over 3♣...partner will ALWAYS bid 3♥ on Hx over 3♣....while bidding 3♥ over 2N essentially ends all hope of reaching clubs opposite some hand such as AJxx x Axx KJxxx.

This was my thinking at the table, and, the above 3♣ third bid was my thinking as well, leaving my partner room to show me two card ♥ support at the 3 level.

However, Ken addresses the "ease of auction" issue, which is of course a problem.
After:
1♥ 2♣
2♦2NT
3♣ 3♥
...how then to confirm the sixth ♥ in opener's hand and keep the auction forward going?

And, if responder does not bid 3♥ following our 3♣ bid, are ♣'s agreed?

An interesting hand.

Thanks for all your input!

[mike777]

prefer 2s rather than 2nt to show shape 5-4 with 4-4 prefer 2nt

Ya in general I would rebid great 6 card h suit over showing 3 card minor support.

If over 3h pard rebids 3nt I have the option now of bidding 4c natural.

[kenrexford]

mikeh, on 2011-September-27, 15:35, said:

Your points have merit, Ken, but seem to me to be based on a naive assumption or two.

Firstly, and most importantly, after 1♥ 2♣ 2♦ 2♠ 3♥......why do you assume that, as opener, you get to bid 4♣ on the next round?

I am willing to bet that on a very substantial number of hands that start with this auction, responder's call over 3♥ will be something higher than 3N, taking your 4♣ bid out of the picture. And over the very common raise to 4♥, 5♣ would not (imo) be interpreted as showing primary club support.

Secondly, I have grave doubts that your auction would be universally understood as you intend it

I agree that I don't know that I will be able to bid 4♣ at the next round. But, if I cannot, I probably don't care that much. The problem calls would be:

1. 4♣. This is a club cue with heart support and slam interest, and hence impossible, as I have two of the top three clubs in my own hand. Hence, this cannot occur.
2. 4♦. As this is what actually happened in my proposed auction and shows extras with heart support. Life is good. I can always trot out 6♣ later, or 7♣, if these seem right.
3. 4♥. Now, I know that partner has a poorly fitting hand, but with support. Probably 4-2-2-5 with poor controls contextually. Six clubs might still be OK if the "poor controls" problem is in hearts (same hand but spade Queen instead of heart Queen, for example). More on this later.
4. Anything above 4♥ is a power slam move in hearts, so I like these.

As far as my auction being universally understood as I intend it, you know my comment about that! LOL

Back to the one "problem" auction. Partner raised to only 4♥ and thus cannot cue anything for fear reasons. Look -- he has at most two diamonds, so I expect a potential diamond problem. But, with only two hearts, I can bring that suit in fairly reliably in a club strain, and that trick source should resolve the diamond doubleton if the opponents do not lead a diamond. With his spade call, his clubs are real, and few would focus the reality of the clubs with a 2♠ call with Jxxxx in clubs. So, I am fairly certain in that auction that partner has the club King. So, 6♣ seems to turn on one issue -- can the opponents win two immediate diamonds (and find that lead effectively)? This seems like a fairly safe 6♣ call. So, I'm not terribly concerned about not being able to bid 5♣ naturally.

My only concern is in reaching seven clubs. But, that's easy after 4♥. I bid 4♠, Exclusion RKCB. If partner shows none, I bid 6♣. If he shows one, I'll ask for the club King just to be sure before bidding 7♣. Maybe I'll even ask about the heart Queen in case partner thought ♠KJxx ♥Qx ♦Ax ♣Kxxxx was not enough to cue.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

masse24, on 2011-September-27, 17:47, said:

...how then to confirm the sixth ♥ in opener's hand and keep the auction forward going?

An interesting hand.

Thanks for all your input!

Show the 6th ♥ by rebidding them.
There are 2 ways to show 6h/4d.... which have been mentioned in other threads:
1) ♥ - ♦ - ♥
or
2) ♥ - ♥ - ♦

The 1st one would show "extras":

1H - 2C!
2D - 2S/2NT/3C
3H - 4H
etc to 6H as before....

[mikeh]

masse24, on 2011-September-27, 17:47, said:

This was my thinking at the table, and, the above 3♣ third bid was my thinking as well, leaving my partner room to show me two card ♥ support at the 3 level.

However, Ken addresses the "ease of auction" issue, which is of course a problem.
After:
1♥ 2♣
2♦2NT
3♣ 3♥
...how then to confirm the sixth ♥ in opener's hand and keep the auction forward going?

And, if responder does not bid 3♥ following our 3♣ bid, are ♣'s agreed?

An interesting hand.

Thanks for all your input!

Ken 'addresses' the "ease of auction" issue by assuming that his partners always bid 3N over his 3♥, allowing him to bid 4♣.

meanwhile, back in the real world, many players actually raise 3♥ to 4♥, thinking all the while that their KJxxx in clubs weren't working because their partners felt that AQx was inadequate support to ever show.

In the same real world, after opener has shown his AQx by bidding 3♣ at his 3rd turn, what's the worst that could happen?

If partner bids 3♥, we can force with 3♠, having already shown at least 5=4=3 in the other suits, so there is no danger that partner will suddenly play us for spade length. If that's too radical an idea, bid 4♣ as an unambiguous slam move.

If partner doesn't bid 3♥, there is at least some chance he'll bid 3♦ and we have an easy 3♥ on our way to exploring 7♣.

If he bids 3N, we can bid 4♥, showing our 0=6=4=3 shape.


Far too many posters have answers to these problems that seem, to me at least, to be influenced by their knowledge of the 2 hands. In the real world, holding AJxx Qx Qx KJxxx, and having already gf'd and bid 2♠ (I'd have bid 2N, but effectively there is no difference) why on earth would an unlimited hand now decide that this high card minimum was a 'power raise' in hearts and cuebid 4♦ on Qx???????? I'm sorry, but who really bids this way unless playing Ken's book?
I know Ken has his detailed slam bidding style and I am sure it works great on many hands...however, it is not exactly standard, so posting answers based on a method played by maybe a handful of people in the world won't advance us much here.

And absent his idiosyncratic agrrements, to think that we are getting 'ease of auction' by bidding ♥/♦/♥ is mystifying to me

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3D.

Given, that you posted the problem, the heart suit does not met your criteria for "solid suit",
otherwise 3H.

At one point in time you should start limiting your hand, 3D tells p, you have add. value,
and you are at least 54.

With kind regards
Marlowe