[WellSpyder]

---

What is the best call on the second round? This is the sort of hand my partner always says is easy after I have made the wrong choice. Is it? Scoring is imps.

[JLOGIC]

I'd pass, my heart holding is really bad to be bidding 5C and I have reasonable defense.

[jmcw]

Can we beat 4♠?, I dunno, but I have decent defence.
Can we make 5♣, I dunno that either.

In spite of what I dunno, I think it wrong to pass. I have a pretty good hand for my initial action and partner should have something useful for his VUL 3♣ call.
The problem with bidding is where are our ♥ losers going?
I see only 3 practical choices
5♣ my choice
Pass 2nd choice
DBL
Not convinced there is any "easy" answer.

[ArtK78]

Pass.

We may go plus against 4♠, but I am not confident.

As for 5♣, if all partner can do is bid 2♣ over 1♠, I don't like my chances of making it.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with the initial double. You have to do something. The "book" call is pass but the book is quite old.

[VM1973]

Although this is likely to be controversial, I probably would have bid an immediate 1NT over 1♥ and then when my partner weighs in with clubs or whatever or they bid on, I would feel that I had gotten the hand off my chest in a single bid.

At this point I would feel uncomfortable passing as I have substantial extra values above and beyond what I showed. I would feel compelled to do something and since my hand isn't very shapely I would double and hope for the best.

[WellSpyder]

VM1973, on 2011-September-27, 09:35, said:

Although this is likely to be controversial, I probably would have bid an immediate 1NT over 1♥ and then when my partner weighs in with clubs or whatever or they bid on, I would feel that I had gotten the hand off my chest in a single bid.

It may be controversial, but I certainly considered 1N as my alternative bid on the first round. In the end I felt that at least I had some support for whatever partner bid if I doubled, whereas bidding 1N without even a half-stop could look very silly. But it certainly could have helped to get the strength of the hand over straight away.

[VM1973]

WellSpyder, on 2011-September-27, 09:44, said:

It may be controversial, but I certainly considered 1N as my alternative bid on the first round. In the end I felt that at least I had some support for whatever partner bid if I doubled, whereas bidding 1N without even a half-stop could look very silly. But it certainly could have helped to get the strength of the hand over straight away.

It may not be the right bid, but the fact that you considered it (and rejected it for whatever reasons) is good enough for me. Kudos.

[aguahombre]

To me, the what next part is easy: pass. The choices initially over 1H were three ugly ones, and have little to do with the question about what next. And, the double should not really foster any strong objections to the OP's conditions.

1NT--ugly, but if pard can xfer to hearts to check before going forward in notrump, o.k.
DBL--ugly, but has support for (all four) suits.
Pass-ugly, possibly most ugly, with 17 HCP; could keep us from a vul minus number (or a vul game)

[WellSpyder]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-27, 10:50, said:

To me, the what next part is easy: pass. The choices initially over 1H were three ugly ones, and have little to do with the question about what next. And, the double should not really foster any strong objections to the OP's conditions.

Interesting - I agree I had three ugly choices over 1♥, but I thought I also had three ugly choices on the next round, too, whereas you seem to have found it easy. Do you think partner should have found a different bid with the values to make it worth you doing something else here, or are you simply believing the opponents' bidding so partner can't have anything worth while?

[aguahombre]

WellSpyder, on 2011-September-27, 11:01, said:

Interesting - I agree I had three ugly choices over 1♥, but I thought I also had three ugly choices on the next round, too, whereas you seem to have found it easy. Do you think partner should have found a different bid with the values to make it worth you doing something else here, or are you simply believing the opponents' bidding so partner can't have anything worth while?

He could have something worthwhile, but I can't really know that --or whether that something is offense or defense. Was thinking he doesn't have a 3C advance; the 1S response does not change the meaning of 3C, but also doesn't help me determine whether 2C was just a six-bagger, or had some moderate defensive strength.

[ggwhiz]

I can't imagine making 5♣ for all the reasons already stated unless pard has a freak that they shouldn't have bid only 2♣ on.

If bidding 5♣ is right we can win 6 imps tops?

If it's wrong we lose 6 imps minimum and easily a LOT more.

On these colours I'll pass and take my stand on another hand.

[JLOGIC]

Why would you bid 1N over 1H? It's not even just that you have no heart stopper...you are also very likely to be wrongsiding 3N if that is your game. The idea of going out of our way to declare the hand from our side makes no sense to me.

Why is double ugly? You have support for all of the unbid suits. You have a good hand. Passing when they open 3rd seat white/red with this hand is mindboggling, it seems like you just want to get stolen from.

Doubling is just routine the first time.

[WellSpyder]

JLOGIC, on 2011-September-28, 05:00, said:

Why is double ugly? You have support for all of the unbid suits. You have a good hand. Passing when they open 3rd seat white/red with this hand is mindboggling, it seems like you just want to get stolen from.

OK, we agree on the first round double, even if you are more comfortable with it than others. But you are no longer worried about being stolen from on the second round? Or you just accept some risk of this given that other options carry greater risks?

[JLOGIC]

WellSpyder, on 2011-September-28, 05:17, said:

OK, we agree on the first round double, even if you are more comfortable with it than others. But you are no longer worried about being stolen from on the second round? Or you just accept some risk of this given that other options carry greater risks?

What do you think they're stealing from us?

I think it is quite unlikely that we make a game given the auction. Partner only bid 2C. The main hand I'm worried about I guess is partner having the ace of hearts and queen fourth of diamonds and the CQ, something like x Axx Qxxx Qxxxx. That is a pretty specific hand. This hand is made even less likely from the auction. Some people open light in third seat white/red, but they don't usually then jump to 4S. Even if you change this hand to x Kxx Qxxx QJxxx, game becomes pretty hopeless.

My main point was that you have to come into the auction over 1H with a hand as good as this since you might have a game or a good partial, especially in a situation where they might open and/or respond light. If you pass you cannot show a hand this good later, and likely will not even be able to bid. With the best hand at the table and support for the unbid suits, I don't understand why one would consider passing 1H, it literally does not make sense to me.

Overcalling 1N also makes no sense to me with Txx of hearts and RHO opening 1H. You are wrongsiding a likely game (no trump) for an upside that I do not understand. Sometimes it's right to bid NT with no stopper, but that is usually when LHO has bid the suit, and when you do not have the right shape for a takeout double.

Once you have come into the auction and have a lot of new information, you are allowed to pass later if it looks like you are very unlikely to have a game.

As far as whether or not it is right to bid over 4S, that is a completely different problem than what to do over 1H. I think bidding 5C would be quite bad since I think we are so likely to go down in 5C, but again that is a judgement/bridge problem I guess. There is also the decision of whether or not it's right to double them, but that's more of a question of how likely we are to beat them 1 or 2 compared to them making than anything else, imo them making will be a far more common result than down 2, and maybe there is some chance they will misguess the SQ if I don't double and they have a 4-4 fit and see me show up with at least AK AK in the minors.

I think double would be the most common choice but I think it is also a common error, dummy having a 4630 hand with few high cards is pretty likely given how many HCP we have, and the partner voluntarily bid, and LHO voluntarily bid, in which case our defense is not very good. I guess you could use this as an argument to bid 5C as a red/white save, but that is a really deep view.

[WellSpyder]

Thanks, Justin - that's quite persuasive. I felt 5♣ was unlikely to make for the reasons various people have mentioned, but still felt reluctant to sell out to 4♠. But as you say, once you don't think 5♣ will make it is a completely separate issue whether or not to double 4♠, based eg on comparing the likelihood of 8 tricks vs 10 tricks. In fact the hand was cold for 11 tricks! Dummy had AJxxx, KQxxxx, Q, x and declarer had both ♥A and ♠K and could finesse against SQ. -690 for 4♠x+1 did not feel like a good score, but we were rescued by teammates - my hand doubled with even less excuse on a different auction and teammates found a redouble for +9 imps. Bidding 5♣ would have been less expensive, but would still have cost 500 if oppo had found a double. OK, partner's hand was a bit of a disappointment with x, Jxx, xx, Jxxxxxx, but well done the passers!

[pooltuna]

JLOGIC, on 2011-September-28, 05:29, said:

What do you think they're stealing from us?

I think it is quite unlikely that we make a game given the auction. Partner only bid 2C. The main hand I'm worried about I guess is partner having the ace of hearts and queen fourth of diamonds and the CQ, something like x Axx Qxxx Qxxxx. That is a pretty specific hand. This hand is made even less likely from the auction. Some people open light in third seat white/red, but they don't usually then jump to 4S. Even if you change this hand to x Kxx Qxxx QJxxx, game becomes pretty hopeless.

My main point was that you have to come into the auction over 1H with a hand as good as this since you might have a game or a good partial, especially in a situation where they might open and/or respond light. If you pass you cannot show a hand this good later, and likely will not even be able to bid. With the best hand at the table and support for the unbid suits, I don't understand why one would consider passing 1H, it literally does not make sense to me.

Overcalling 1N also makes no sense to me with Txx of hearts and RHO opening 1H. You are wrongsiding a likely game (no trump) for an upside that I do not understand. Sometimes it's right to bid NT with no stopper, but that is usually when LHO has bid the suit, and when you do not have the right shape for a takeout double.

Once you have come into the auction and have a lot of new information, you are allowed to pass later if it looks like you are very unlikely to have a game.

As far as whether or not it is right to bid over 4S, that is a completely different problem than what to do over 1H. I think bidding 5C would be quite bad since I think we are so likely to go down in 5C, but again that is a judgement/bridge problem I guess. There is also the decision of whether or not it's right to double them, but that's more of a question of how likely we are to beat them 1 or 2 compared to them making than anything else, imo them making will be a far more common result than down 2, and maybe there is some chance they will misguess the SQ if I don't double and they have a 4-4 fit and see me show up with at least AK AK in the minors.

I think double would be the most common choice but I think it is also a common error, dummy having a 4630 hand with few high cards is pretty likely given how many HCP we have, and the partner voluntarily bid, and LHO voluntarily bid, in which case our defense is not very good. I guess you could use this as an argument to bid 5C as a red/white save, but that is a really deep view.

P1] It is not so much that they are stealing from you. You double because you need to establish a reputation of punishing attempts to steal from you in situations like this. Once you have this reputation you can pass hands like this. For all you know 1♠ was a strength psyche holding 65432 xx and out. The other part of Xing is telling partner you have xtras so with the right hand he can bid a making game.

P2] Partner is still V vs NV and from his perspective 2♣X is not a game bid so I expect him to be careful.

P3] completely agree

P4} agree! 1NT is MP decision in an IMPS game.

P5] unless you feel you need to take out some insurance on future hands

P6] agree

P7] I think X is pretty neutral a choice for the final call and is not for just this hand.

[han]

New concept, scoring -690 now to earn their respect for later.

[JLOGIC]

[VM1973]

han, on 2011-September-28, 15:03, said:

New concept, scoring -690 now to earn their respect for later.

I suppose you place no blame for the -690 on the decision by the doubler's partner to bid on two jacks?

[JLOGIC]

VM1973, on 2011-September-28, 15:59, said:

I suppose you place no blame for the -690 on the decision by the doubler's partner to bid on two jacks?

The 5 being a 6 can be blame on that