[inquiry]

EricK, on Oct 6 2004, 02:24 PM, said:

Even if we are playing 2/1, I am not convinced!

I am sure you have read Fred's post on another thread where he mentioned why Frivolous 3NT was better than Serious 3NT (i.e. if neither player really wants to look for a slam it is better that less information is given to the opponents). I think the same thing may apply here i.e. a Serious splinter is better than a Frivolous splinter.

Also, I am worried about sequences like this (I will assume serious 3NT as that is what you were using in earlier posts, but similar things apply to Frivolous):

1♠ 2♥
3♥ 4♣ (frivolous)

Aren't you at all interested whether the 4♣ bidder has the A? He may be cue-bidding the K, or he may even have a singleton! Now if you cue-bid 4♦ to show your seriousness, partner has to either sign off in 4♥ and you have to then decide whther to bid on, or he bids to the five level thinking you like his ♣K.

Eric

Well, I read Fred's post on the advantage of friviolous 3NT.. I also read that he PLAYS serious 3NT.. so there are advantages and disadvantages of each.

I don't think I would go so far as to call 4♣ splinter as frivolous.. it is quite serious and descriptive. Singleton in bid suit, no control in fourth suit, four trumps (in general)...

I don't worry too much about the four club cue-bid (non-seriously) being a king, it is more important that it is non-serious than it is the king. Opener, with controls in all suits (but perhaps except trumps). Remember on this auction, (1S-2H-3H-4C).. responder lacks AK or Q of spades, does no thave slam interest.. If opener didn't jump to 4C with splinter, his hand is at a minimum, a diamond control (A or K), a four card heart fit, a spade control, probably AK or AQ, and the stiff club. There is a lot of info here...Opener needs all of that to even consider a LTTC bid of 4D with a splinter type hand. No doubt if responder doesn't signoff, then 5HE should be ok even if responder has club king instead of club ace.. at least in my experience with model hands.

Ben

[EricK]

Thanks Ben,

I shall carefully reconsider all these sequences.

Eric

[inquiry]

Well, I don't want to sound like a preacher... you can choose to play this anyway you want too... And besides, it rare anyone ever agrees with my bidding theories anyway... still ahve trouble finding people to play 2♣ openers the way I like....

Ben

[EricK]

inquiry, on Oct 6 2004, 07:51 PM, said:

Well, I don't want to sound like a preacher... you can choose to play this anyway you want too... And besides, it rare anyone ever agrees with my bidding theories anyway... still ahve trouble finding people to play 2♣ openers the way I like....

Ben

The whole conversation was purely theoretical as far as I am concerned.

Firstly, I never have fit for my partner, and secondly I never have a slam suitable hand

Eric

[pclayton]

I've never though about a splinter denying a control in the 4th suit; not that it isn't playable. I've never read about it in any literature, and I know of no top pairs that utilize it.; again - not that it isn't playable. Somehow, Bermuda Bowls are amazingly won without the systemic advice that many here post; bizarre but true.

Initially it seems that this restriction makes the call too infrequent; since all of the raiser's values have to be crammed into the opening bid suit and support. We all know how much picture jumps occur (like..never); now we are shoehorning even more of the bids into the auction 1♠ - 2[x] - 3x.

One reason I WOULD consider the treatment is sometimes the splinter outranks the 4th suit; 1♠ - 2♥ - 4♦, so we can't cue the 4th suit below game, or launch rkcb without knowledge of a control in the 4th suit. Or, maybe a better use of the call is that the splinter DOES promise a control in the 4th suit. I would think this would occur more frequently that no control.

What I have against this treatment is that cue bidding stiffs and voids is verboten in this context, and frequently the only way to show the shortness is to make the splinter.

Incidentally, I fully stand behind what I said about the original posted auction. In an ACOL (or SAYC) context; the splinter has to show extra values, since 2/1 isn't GF and 3H isn't forcing. East is still 100% to blame.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Oct 6 2004, 07:44 PM, said:

I've never though about a splinter denying a control in the 4th suit; not that it isn't playable. I've never read about it in any literature, and I know of no top pairs that utilize it.; again - not that it isn't playable. Somehow, Bermuda Bowls are amazingly won without the systemic advice that many here post; bizarre but true.

Initially it seems that this restriction makes the call too infrequent; since all of the raiser's values have to be crammed into the opening bid suit and support. We all know how much picture jumps occur (like..never); now we are shoehorning even more of the bids into the auction 1♠ - 2[x] - 3x.

One reason I WOULD consider the treatment is sometimes the splinter outranks the 4th suit; 1♠ - 2♥ - 4♦, so we can't cue the 4th suit below game, or launch rkcb without knowledge of a control in the 4th suit. Or, maybe a better use of the call is that the splinter DOES promise a control in the 4th suit. I would think this would occur more frequently that no control.

What I have against this treatment is that cue bidding stiffs and voids is verboten in this context, and frequently the only way to show the shortness is to make the splinter.

Incidentally, I fully stand behind what I said about the original posted auction. In an ACOL (or SAYC) context; the splinter has to show extra values, since 2/1 isn't GF and 3H isn't forcing. East is still 100% to blame.

If you hadn't thought about the implications of the splinter with regards to the fourth suit, obviously then it is not important. :-)

As far as the original post, no system was given... and my answer started..."Was 2♥ Game force? I will assume so." and then I gave my assessment. It it had stated that 2♥ was not game force (or sayc), I probably would not have bothered answering. I agree that the meaning of a splinter im a non-game forcing auction has to be different from in a game force one.. So, for instance...

1H-1S-4C is a compleetly different kind of splinter that from 1S-1H-4C...

Ben

[pclayton]

Ben: I had tuned in after Jack had posted his clarifications on the auction; your initial post was before the system was given. No big deal; I think we agree on the blame in a non-2/1 setting.

[1eyedjack]

inquiry, on Oct 6 2004, 07:54 PM, said:

It it had stated that 2♥ was not game force (or sayc), I probably would not have bothered answering.

It was not a conscious decision, but with the benefit of hindsight I am glad that I did not stipulate the system, else much of interest would have been lost.

[inquiry]

A number of dissent views arose about the wey I play splinters in game force situations. Specifically on the auction 1S-2H-4C.... So I thought I would post a few more example hands, grouped by hand type to illustrate the "effectiveness" of this method.

I will start with hands where REsponder knows, right way there is no slam. Either because of two quick losers in the ohter minor (my splinter denies first or second round control of the other minor), or due to off two minor suit ACE (responder lacks ace in splintered suit or ace in other minor.. my splinter will never be void and will never be singleton ace)... The auctions shown are real world.. imagine mine would go 1S-2H-4m-4H.... pass in all these quoted examples. Of course you will see how stopping safely and securely at four will work on all these hands. No great feat.. the next post will show you hands were slam is potentially possible after the leap, but how it might be safely avoided....

Quote

IMP-980    West        Dlr: North
Board 1    S K        Vul: None
              H AQJ75   
South      D J5          North     
S 8742      C KJ752      S 53       
H T                          H 942     
D KT962    East          D AQ84     
C AQ6      S AQJT96    C T943     
              H K863     
              D 73       
            C 8       

South    West    North    East   
63.31    49.18    57.68    52.18   
                  Pass    1S     
Pass    2H      Pass    4C*     
Pass    4S      Pass    Pass   
Pass   

1. cue
Opening lead: CA    Result: Made 4
Score: 420          Points: -2.00


IMP-504    North      Dlr: North
Board 1    S QT976    Vul: None
              H AQ84     
West        D T63        East       
S K54      C J          S AJ83     
H 7                        H JT2     
D J4          South      D A752     
C A865432  S 2        C QT       
                H K9653   
                D KQ98     
                C K97     

West    North    East    South   
54.04    49.59    55.19    50.07   
        1S      Pass    2H     
3C      4H      Pass    Pass   
Pass   
Opening lead: CA    Result: Down 2
Score: -100        Points: -5.42


IMP-731    South      Dlr: East 
Board 6    S AQ863    Vul: E-W
              H KQJ95   
East        D J6        West       
S KJ42      C J        S T975     
H 87                      H 6       
D Q7        North      D AK984   
C Q7653    S          C 982     
                H AT432   
                D T532     
                C AKT4     

East    South    West    North   
57.16    49.62    53.37    46.60   
Pass    1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    4C!      Pass    4D     
Pass    4H      Pass    Pass   
Pass   

1. splinter
Opening lead: DQ    Result: Made 5
Score: 450          Points: -1.00

IMP-64      East        Dlr: North
Board 5    S AQJ92    Vul: N-S
            H QJ87     
North      D T92      South     
S K54      C 6        S T86     
H 63                      H T9       
D J8765    West        D A4       
C KT9      S 73        C AJ8742   
            H AK542   
            D KQ3     
            C Q53     

North    East    South    West   
51.58    54.82    40.19    57.66   
Pass    1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    3H      Pass    4H     
Pass    Pass    Pass   
Opening lead: H3    Result: Made 5
Score: 450          Points: 0.62 


IMP-905    South      Dlr: East 
Board 10    S AKT86    Vul: Both
            H AJ98     
East        D J84      West       
S 74        C 7        S J93     
H Q4                    H T7       
D KQT963    North      D A5       
C JT8      S Q52      C Q96542   
            H K6532   
            D 72       
            C AK3     

East    South    West    North   
46.17    43.75    45.50    42.46   
Pass    1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    3H      Pass    3S     
Pass    4C      Pass    4H     
Pass    Pass    Pass   
Opening lead: DK    Result: Made 4
Score: 620          Points: -1.00


IMP-819    West        Dlr: North
Board 9    S AK732    Vul: E-W
            H KQJ6     
South      D QT8      North     
S 8654      C 3        S JT9     
H T8                    H 95       
D 72        East        D AKJ96   
C A9765    S Q        C T42     
            H A7432   
            D 543     
            C KQJ8     

South    West    North    East   
49.06    55.17    58.13    53.73   
                  Pass    Pass   
Pass    1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    4H      Pass    Pass   
Pass   
Opening lead: D7    Result: Down 2
Score: -200        Points: -3.70

       
IMP-19              u    Dlr: South
Board 25394 S K9532    Vul: E-W
            H AK76     
            D J54         
S Q6        C 5        S JT874   
H J92                  H         
D KQ87                D AT963   
C T943      S A        C A76     
            H QT8543   
            D 2       
            C KQJ82   

15-May-04  7:13:31 PM
First  7:04:22 PM, Last  7:18:21 PM

East    South    West    North     
        1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    3H      Pass    4H     
Pass    Pass    Pass   

Opening lead: DK    Result: Made 5
Score: 450   


IMP-20                  Dlr: West 
Board 32300
            S AQ5432    Vul: Both
            H KJ64     
            D 94             
S          C 6        S JT987   
H 5                    H 9       
D KQJ76                D T8532   
C AT87432  S K6        C KJ       
              H AQT8732 
              D A       
              C Q95     

18-May-04 10:03:07 PM
First 10:00:40 PM, Last 10:10:26 PM

South    West    North    East   

        1S      Pass    2H     
2NT!    3H      Pass    4D     
5C      Pass    Pass    Dbl     
Pass    Pass    5D      Pass   
Pass    5H      Pass    Pass   
Pass   

[inquiry]

The last post of mine showed the speed at which responder can stop after the descriptive splinter I propose.. now lets see how to put on the brakes when uncertainty exist. The first premise is that with no stopper in the second minor, responder will signoff. So LTTC here promises a stopper (obviously) in the second minor and uncertainty about continuing... When responder is uncertain, opener can often just stop.. After all, his hand is fairly well defined. Singleton in one minor, no A or K ior singleton in other, and enough to open. His remaining hcp, obviously are scattered in both majors. The more he has in one, the less he may have in the other.... When he is terrifically rich in both, over the LTTC bid, he will continue...if not, look at these examples...

When examining these, forget the real world auctions that are shown.. the bidding would go... 1S-2H-4C-4D-4H- Pass, where 4C was the decriptive splinter, 4D promised stopper in second minor, but uncertainty as to continue towards slam or not. We will see in the next post some hands where over this LTTC opener has no trouble continuing towards slam (I apologize for the alignment issues)...

Quote

IMP-18                    Dlr: North
Board 759  S A9863    Vul: E-W
              H AK87     
              D 932         
S 7        C 7        S KQJT5   
H J53                  H 6       
D A54                  D QT876   
C J96532    S 42        C KT       
            H QT942   
            D KJ       
            C AQ84     

04-May-04  9:57:02 AM
First  9:48:01 AM, Last 10:06:48 AM

North    East    South    West   
Pass    1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    Pass    3D      Pass   
Pass    3H      Pass    4H     
Pass    Pass    Pass   

Opening lead: S7    Result: Down 1
Score: -100       


IMP-710    West        Dlr: West 
Board 4    S KQT875    Vul: Both
            H AK72     
South      D T9        North     
S J32      C 4        S A4       
H 96                    H 85       
D QJ874    East        D 65       
C AJ3      S 96        C KT87652 
            H QJT43   
            D AK32     
            C Q9       

South    West    North    East   
48.46    57.35    60.61    60.69   
        1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    4C!      Dbl*    4D!     
Pass    4H      Pass    4NT     
Pass    5H!      Pass    Pass   
Pass   

1. splinter
2. clubs
3. cue bid
4. 2 kc w/o Q!h
Opening lead: CA    Result: Made 5
Score: 650          Points: -1.00


IMP-263    East        Dlr: North
Board 5    S A9853    Vul: N-S
            H A743     
North      D QT9      South     
S JT762    C 8        S Q       
H 9                    H K82     
D AJ753    West        D 64       
C JT        S K4        C KQ95432 
            H QJT65   
            D K82     
            C A76     

North    East    South    West   
57.53    0.00    36.91    45.68   
Pass    1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    4H      Pass    Pass   
Pass   
Opening lead: CJ    Result: Down 1
Score: -50          Points: -8.15


IMP-980    East        Dlr: North
Board 9    S AKQJ8    Vul: E-W
            H JT85     
North      D J73      South     
S T72      C 9        S 943     
H A92                  H 6       
D QT4      West        D K852     
C Q864      S 65        C AJ753   
            H KQ743   
            D A96     
            C KT2     

North    East    South    West   
53.85    48.21    46.32    49.74   
Pass    1S      Pass    2H     
Pass    4C*      Pass    4H     
Pass    Pass    Pass   

1. splinter
Opening lead: C4    Result: Made 4
Score: 620          Points: -1.00

[inquiry]

In last two post, I showed hands were responder either stopped short after the descriptive splinter, or used LTTC and his partner pulled in the reigns. In this thread, I will show a series of hands where the bidding would continue either immediiately by responder (by bidding above 4H), or by opener shoiwing "extra values" over the LTTC bid, or by responder first bidding LTTC and then not accepting reponders signoff.

As before, the real world bidding is shown, but this time, starting with the splinter bid, I ahve added the remaing part of the auction...

Quote

IMP-19      South       Dlr: East 
Board 24978
                S AKT85     Vul: N-S
                H A976     
East          D J94       West       
S Q94       C K         S J7632    
H Q83                   H 4        
D K872      North       D QT63     
C 932       S           C Q76      
            H KJT52    
            D A5       
            C AJT854   

East     South    West     North   
Pass     1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     4C*      Pass     4NT     
Pass     5H*      Pass     6H      
Pass     Pass     Pass    

1. splinter raise of hearts
2. lol
Opening lead: C2    Result: Made 6
Score: 1430         Points: 4.00 

4C - 4NT; 5H - 6h

IMP-20      West        Dlr: West 
Board 37794
               S AKQ98     Vul: None
               H JT743    
South       D J2        North      
S JT43      C Q         S 765      
H 6                     H 52       
D Q964      East        D T75      
C T876      S 2         C K9542    
            H AKQ98    
            D AK83     
            C AJ3      

South    West     North    East    
         1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3H       Pass     4NT     
Pass     5D       Pass     5NT     
Pass     6D       Pass     6NT     
Pass     Pass     Pass    
Opening lead: D4    Result: Made 7
Score: 1020         Points: -5.67

keep it simple... 4C - 7H... opener iwth no AKQ in hearts, diamonds, or clubs (well could have club K or Q stiff), is marked for excellent spades. If you want to be pendantic about it, you could bid 4NT, and then ask for kings... but this is very simple bridge.

IMP-20      West        Dlr: West 
Board 39490 S AK876     Vul: Both
            H AQ43     
South       D J87       North      
S T943      C 8         S J2       
H 6                     H T8       
D T65       East        D Q93      
C AJ432     S Q5        C KQT976   
            H KJ9752   
            D AK42     
            C 5        

South    West     North    East   
         1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     4H       Pass     Pass    
Pass    
Opening lead: D5    Result: Made 6
Score: 680          Points: -4.47

4C - 4D, 4NT - 5S, 6H -pass... 4D expressed uncertainty, but promised diamond control. With AK in spades, and AQ in hearts, just enough to continue. Ace asking is most appropriate.. With a sixth heart south shows heart queen even though he doesn't hold it.


IMP-21      North       Dlr: West 
Board 48482 S AT8742    Vul: Both
            H AJ62     
West        D Q7        East       
S J96       C 4         S K3       
H 3                     H Q94      
D J6532     South       D AT84     
C KT72      S Q5        C Q863     
            H KT875    
            D K9       
            C AJ95     

West     North    East     South   
Pass     1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3H       Pass     4C*     
Pass     4NT!     Pass     5H      
Pass     6H       Pass     Pass    
Pass    

Opening lead: C2    Result: Down 2
Score: -200         Points: -7.47

4C - 4D; 4H - Pass once again after uncertainty 4D, north has no problem astoppong .

IMP-23      East        Dlr: East 
Board 17099
               S AQJ42     Vul: E-W
               H KT96     
North        D 986       South      
S T986      C Q         S 53       
H 2                     H Q53      
D AKJ54     West        D T732     
C KJ4       S K7        C T863     
              H AJ874    
              D Q        
              C A9752    

North    East     South    West    
         1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3H       Pass     4C      
Pass     4S       Pass     6H      
Pass     Pass     Pass    
Opening lead: DA    Result: Down 1
Score: -100         Points: -12.13

4C - 4Dl; 4H = Pass Once responder express uncertainly, opener iwth an 12 count, counting his club queen, will stop. On a good day 6H might make, but few if any will be there...


IMP-25      East        Dlr: South
Board 41458 S KQ853     Vul: E-W
            H KQJT     
North       D QJ4       South      
S JT74      C 4         S A2       
H 83                    H 52       
D KT        West        D 8632     
C QT652     S 96        C AJ873    
            H A9764    
            D A975     
            C K9       

North    East     South    West   
                  Pass     Pass    
Pass     1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     Pass     Pass    
Opening lead: C2    Result: Made 5
Score: 200          Points: -5.07

4C - 4D; 4H = Pass (safe) or,
4C - 4D; 4NT - 5H, Pass

If opener feels that wtth KQJT of hearts and good spades and what is probably useful diamonds he can't afford to pass. 5H is not entirely safe.

IMP-25      North       Dlr: West 
Board 44841
               S AQJ984    Vul: None
               H A953     
West         D K3        East       
S T5         C 6         S 7632     
H 642                   H 8        
D T62       South       D QJ974    
C QT753     S K         C J98      
            H KQJT7    
            D A85      
            C AK42     

West     North    East     South   
56.97    47.48    52.20    47.52   
Pass     1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3S       Pass     3NT     
Pass     4H       Pass     Pass    
Pass    
Opening lead: C3    Result: Made 7
Score: 510          Points: -12.60

All roads lead to grand slam... first
4C - 4D; 4NT - 5C; 5D -5S; 7H (5S = heart Queen plus spade king), or
4C -4S; 4NT - where 4S shows spade fitting honor, now it is even easier.

IMP-25      East        Dlr: North
Board 47485 S AKQT8     Vul: N-S
            H Q9432    
North       D T4        South      
S 9632      C J         S J54      
H T6                    H K        
D 98762     West        D KJ5      
C Q6        S 7         C K95432   
            H AJ875    
            D AQ3      
            C AT87     

North    East     South    West    
40.69    45.95    49.54    49.60   
Pass     1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     4H       Pass     Pass    
Pass    
Opening lead: D9    Result: Made 7
Score: 510          Points: -7.27

4C - 4NT; 5D - 6H, pass


IMP-27      South       Dlr: South
Board 3624  S AKQ74     Vul: N-S
            H AQ953    
East        D 82        West       
S J83       C Q         S T962     
H 6                     H J        
D KJT963    North       D Q754     
C 653       S 5         C K972     
            H KT8742   
            D A        
            C AJT84    

East     South    West     North   
61.00    50.86    45.51    53.52   
         1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3H       Pass     4C      
Pass     4H       Pass     4NT     
Pass     5H       Pass     6H      
Pass     Pass     Pass    
Opening lead: DJ    Result: Made 7
Score: 1460         Points: -6.07

This time responder might bid 4D first (never passing 4H) to see if opener has a good hand for the bidding or not. Or he might go with blackwood right away.
4C - 4NT; 5S - 5NT; 7H - pass... 5NT is I can see 12 tricks... kind of thing, opener has plenty of extra tricks to spare.

IMP-27      North       Dlr: North
Board 9607  S AQ943     Vul: None
                 H KQT5     
West          D QT4       East       
S 8765        C J         S KT2      
H 9                          H J72      
D 972       South        D KJ853    
C KT632     S J          C Q7       
            H A8643    
            D A6       
            C A9854    

West     North    East     South   
57.01    50.46    48.23    53.47   
         1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3H       Pass     4C!     
Dbl      Pass!    Pass     4H      
Pass     Pass     Pass    

Opening lead: D7    Result: Made 5
Score: 450          Points: -1.07

4C - 4D; 4S - 4NT; 5S - 6H; pass Despite this pair only taking 11 tricks, 12 are there... with KQTx of hearts, AQ of spades, and a working QT of diamonds, north is too good to pass 4D's.


IMP-28      East        Dlr: East 
Board 20618 S AQ9876    Vul: N-S
            H KQT2     
North       D Q3        South      
S J542      C T         S KT       
H 95                    H          
D 74        West        D JT9865   
C A9732     S 3         C KQ865    
            H AJ87643  
            D AK2      
            C J4       

North    East     South    West    
42.87    41.62    54.81    37.23   
         1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     2S       Pass     3D      
Pass     4C       Dbl      4D      
Pass     4S       Pass     4NT     
Pass     5D       Pass     5NT     
Pass     6H       Pass     Pass    
Dbl      Rdbl     Pass     Pass    
Pass    
Opening lead: CA    Result: Made 6
Score: 1620         Points: 14.87

easy blackwood gets you to six...

IMP-28      North       Dlr: North
Board 22210 S AJ987     Vul: E-W
            H KJT6     
West        D T63       East       
S 543       C Q         S KQT      
H 97                    H 83       
D K984      South       D AQJ75    
C T974      S 62        C J32      
            H AQ542    
            D 2        
            C AK865    

West     North    East     South   
52.33    52.87    50.85    55.48   
         1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3H       Pass     4C      
Pass     4H       Pass     Pass    
Pass    
Opening lead: D4    Result: Made 5
Score: 450          Points: 1.20 

4C - 4D; 4H - PAss Opener has nothing more than minimum expected.

IMP-29      South       Dlr: East 
Board 31181 S AKT87     Vul: None
            H KJ984    
East        D Q6        West       
S 32        C T         S QJ654    
H 753                   H          
D KJT932    North       D 754      
C A2        S 9         C QJ854    
            H AQT62    
            D A8       
            C K9763    

East     South    West     North   
66.50    59.80    60.29    59.63   
Pass     1S       Pass     2H      
Pass     3H       Pass     4H      
Pass     Pass     Pass    
Opening lead: CA    Result: Made 6
Score: 480          Points: 1.40 

4C - 4D; 4NT - 5S; 6H Opener has extras...

I think this shows how the bidding might progress... If anyone is interested, we could cover hands with splinter shape, but too "good" for splinter (control in other minor as well)... but that is pretty much standard serious 3NT business... covered elsewhere.

Ben

[pclayton]

Ben, I've considered the idea of having a splinter in these auctions deny a control in the 4th suit, and I think its sound bidding theory. Coupled with Last Train, it adds a lot of clarity to auctions.

Now....in auctions where a minor is agreed to via splinter, how can these auctions be handled, where there is no Last Train or Serious 3N?

1♠ - 2♣ - 3♦?
1♣ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♠?


Posters, please check in.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Oct 11 2004, 12:33 PM, said:

Ben, I've considered the idea of having a splinter in these auctions deny a control in the 4th suit, and I think its sound bidding theory. Coupled with Last Train, it adds a lot of clarity to auctions.

Now....in auctions where a minor is agreed to via splinter, how can these auctions be handled, where there is no Last Train or Serious 3N?

1♠ - 2♣ - 3♦?
1♣ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♠?


Posters, please check in.

Thanks, in fact it does add clarity beyond belief...

The minor splinter, however, is a horse of different color. After the minor splinter, you often will need 3NT to play (since you may not want to go to 5 of a minor). So, I have been using the minor suit splinter just to try to set trumps. The one thought I have had about it, and have studied and it seems workable in theory, is that the minor suit splinter PROMISES a control in the undbid suit. This promise is useful for two reasons. First, if partner decides to try to stop in three notrump knowing about your short suit, and your fourth suit control, you will need considerable extra values (and probably a void) to override this decision. This avoids some untimely pulls of 3NT just to show your fourth suit control. The splinter can (in this case) show a void, or singleton ace as well.

Thus here, the splinter is aimed at making it easier to stop in 3NT and getting best shot at six of a minor, when you can't or when you should leave 3NT. To be honest, I haven't instituted this promise of a control in the off suit yet in any partnership. It does seem useful to me, however, in practice hands.


But anyway you decide to play this splinter, it had best be accurately defined to give you the best shot to stop or not, as you quickly run out of room. I guess it might work just as well the other way.
Ben

[pclayton]

Perhaps we should look at the splinter specifically promising OR denying control in the 4th suit, but not either. I think without the agreement, responder is 'stuck', holding duplicated values in the splinter suit; but no stopper in the 4th suit.

---

versus:

---

Certainly East has a problem with this set absent any agreements toward the 4th suit.

[junyi_zhu]

1eyedjack, on Oct 4 2004, 11:06 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Uncontested
W....E
1♠...2♥
4♣...4♥
P

---

4C was splinter
Assign the blame?

this hand is probably too strong for 4C. You only need Sxx HAxxxxx DAx CKxx to have a good play in 6H and partner would sign off with this hand over 4C. Thus it's better to start from 3H. 4C is limited and should be about 12-14 HCP or bad 15, >=6losers. Also, it's not a dead minimum as well.
Also, responder should bid 4D as last train, 4H is a little bit conservative.

[inquiry]

Here are some real workd example hands.. .I left the bidding at the table in, because too much work to cut it out...but, these might provide soem example hands to bat about for rahter the splinter should show or should not show whatever.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♠ Pass
4♠ Pass 6♦ Pass
Pass Pass

---

[inquiry]

Thanks Phil. Your comment caused me to consider this situation some more. Upon further review, I think I have a concept now. I think the if the minor suit splinter occurs in a game forcing auction at the three level, it should DENY a stopper in the fourth suit (bid out your disribution to show stopper in their suit and short suit). If the splinter occurs at the four level, it should promise a stopper in the fourth suit, since you are committing to 5 of a minor anyway, might as well show what you have. Let's see how this rule set would apply to a selected group of previous hands....

This treatment gives you best chance to stop in 3NT when it is right (quick losers in off suit and wasted values in short suit), and gives you very specific information when needed when pressing towards slam.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South
- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♣ Pass
3NT Pass 4♠ Pass
4[NT] Pass 5♠ Pass
6♦

Not 3♠ at second round due to the club control. 4♠ has to be spade void, with singleton, 4♦ would work, and this promises a club control. Blackwood solves you are missing the club ace... change club KQ to Ax and you can start worrying about if grand slam can be bid and or made.

---

For one of Phil's hands..

Scoring: IMP

West North East South
- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♣ Pass
3NT Pass 4♠ Pass
4[NT] Pass 5♠ Pass
6♦

Not 3♠ at second round due to the club control. 4♠ has to be spade void, with singleton, 4♦ would work, and this promises a club control. Blackwood solves you are missing the club ace... change club KQ to Ax and you can start worrying about if grand slam can be bid and or made.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South
- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♣ Pass
3NT Pass 4♠ Pass
4[NT] Pass 5♠ Pass
6♦

Not 3♠ at second round due to the club control. 4♠ has to be spade void, with singleton, 4♦ would work, and this promises a club control. Blackwood solves you are missing the club ace... change club KQ to Ax and you can start worrying about if grand slam can be bid and or made.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South
- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♣ Pass
3NT Pass 4♠ Pass
4[NT] Pass 5♠ Pass
6♦

Not 3♠ at second round due to the club control. 4♠ has to be spade void, with singleton, 4♦ would work, and this promises a club control. Blackwood solves you are missing the club ace... change club KQ to Ax and you can start worrying about if grand slam can be bid and or made.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South
- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♣ Pass
3NT Pass 4♠ Pass
4[NT] Pass 5♠ Pass
6♦

Not 3♠ at second round due to the club control. 4♠ has to be spade void, with singleton, 4♦ would work, and this promises a club control. Blackwood solves you are missing the club ace... change club KQ to Ax and you can start worrying about if grand slam can be bid and or made.

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South
- - 1♥ Pass
2♦ Pass 3♣ Pass
3NT Pass 4♠ Pass
4[NT] Pass 5♠ Pass
6♦

Not 3♠ at second round due to the club control. 4♠ has to be spade void, with singleton, 4♦ would work, and this promises a club control. Blackwood solves you are missing the club ace... change club KQ to Ax and you can start worrying about if grand slam can be bid and or made.

---